Transcript
Esi:
Hi everybody. Welcome to another interview of our podcast. Part of me, I’m here with another guest interviewee who is just going to introduce herself just now. So hello, guest.
Ashleigh:
Hello. My name’s Ashleigh Richie. Nice to meet you all.
Esi:
Nice to meet you too, Ashleigh, can you tell us a bit about what you do?
Ashleigh:
Can. Indeed. I’m a dancer and I’m also, I also deliver equality and diversity and disability training alongside job carving and talk about reasonable adjustment.
Esi:
Okay, do you mind telling you? I mean, that all sounds really, really interesting, and I want you to unpack all of that. But do you mind just starting telling us what Job carving is?
Ashleigh:
Job carving is where you actually identify so if a disabled person comes for a job, you might identify things that they might bring to the business to make it stronger. Yeah, but actually, Job carving, it’s easier than making some reasonable adjustments, because reasonable adjustments can upset a lot of other staff in that they might think the disabled person is getting like favorite of them, and that could cause bullying in the workplace. But what Job carving is is that you might take bits of other people’s jobs that actually take up a lot of time for them, other people to do, and actually carve out a job for the disabled person that brings out their strengths.
Esi:
That sounds absolutely brilliant. Actually, is that a new initiative, or has it been around a long time?
Ashleigh:
It’s been around a little while, but not a lot of people know about it because it because in in the Equality Act 2010 it talks more about reasonable adjustment, yeah, and reasonable adjustment is just taking out, you know, just taking out the bits of the job that a disabled person can’t do, but often, like I say, that causes, you know, bullying in the workplace, really, because the thing that the disabled person getting paid exactly the same amount of money and doing less?
Esi:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this sounds really, really good, is it? Is there somewhere where people can find out more about it.
Ashleigh:
Yes, you can, you can Google it, or that I have a YouTube channel that a positive it’s just a positive channel about everything that I’ve achieved. And the talks about, there’s a video that talks about job carving in a very simple way, but it actually then tells businesses that actually, if they want to learn more, I would actually go in and work with the company, not to do not to do a training session necessarily, but to kind of work with the bosses to show them how the process works.
Esi:
Yeah. No, that sounds good. So at the end of the podcast, I’ll ask you again about your YouTube channel, so that anyone that wants to go and see it can go and have a look and find out more and maybe contact you as a result. That’s great. Can you tell us, but I mean that you said that you’re a dancer as well. That sounds great. Can you tell us a bit more about that?
Ashleigh:
Yes, I am a dancer. I am my original training was, was performing arts, and that incorporated dance, but that was back when I was 16, and I’m 38 now. So back then, the Equality Act didn’t exist. And, you know, people were very close minded about disability. I don’t want to say there was a lot of discrimination that went on. I just don’t think that people were very well educated back then. Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of went into a field where it was a big no no. There wasn’t a lot of disabled people around. And for all, I got the qualifications, and they were quite happy for me to be there. There was elements of the course that just said, Actually, you’ve trained in the wrong field, and we don’t want you know you can’t come into the dance class, because we want you to be with disabled people. Well, I because it fits around better what you can do. I didn’t really want that, so I refused to do that. Then, when I’d been told that I trained in the wrong field because said, you won’t get a job unless somebody wants to actually see a disabled person on television. You know what? I mean, you won’t be as much scope for you as somebody else who’s able bodied. So that really put me off. Yeah. So then I decided to go and go down the teaching route so that I hadn’t wasted kind of the skills that I’d gained. And I went and did some teaching with seven year olds, and they just absolutely adored me. And I thought we’d go really well. I’d been there for six weeks, and everything was just totally amazing on my half. And the children seemed to really love the fact that I was in the chair. They were asking loads of questions and things like that. And then I was called to the heads office, and she just said, I’m sorry, you’re a fire hazard, and we can’t have you here anymore.
Esi:
Oh, God.
Ashleigh:
And I and I honestly believe that that would be like that the whole of my life. And I just I was devastated at the fact that I’m a twin, and I my twins able odied, and I was always brought up the same way there, so the fact that I thought that I would get a job the same as her, and then I was discriminated against, I was really upset about that, and it took me two years to build confidence to go back into the workplace, and I decided to go to a disabled school and do some work, work placement. Yeah, I was, I was there for three weeks, and then I was employed, and I actually took within the first year, I took promotion as the sound therapist, and I was trained on the job, and I was there for 10 years. So it worked out really, really well. But the first part of my, you know, getting into the workplace was really, really quite traumatic for me, and so when I when I actually decided to go down the equality route and do some equality training, I did that because I felt like it was needed, and I didn’t want anybody else to face what I’d face. Because, actually, I did figure out that people knowledge is power, and if people don’t have the knowledge, then how can they make it all right for people? And you know, if they don’t want to have the knowledge, where do they get the knowledge from and the knowledge comes from people like you and I. You know because there isn’t a textbook that knows what we know. You know. There isn’t a textbook that will tell people how it feels to be tracked like that. There isn’t a textbook that tells somebody how to put that right. You know that it’s all right. You know that there isn’t right and wrong things to say that if you in your heart, know that you’re trying to do the best for somebody, that you can stand up in court and say, I did my best for this person, and then you can prove that you’re not discriminating against them. It’s when you’re afraid, and really people need to just embrace diversity, because actually, even if you haven’t got a disability, everybody’s different, aren’t they, and everybody has different strengths and weaknesses, whether you’re disabled or you’re not. So you know, when the Equality Act came out, it was really good, because people realized that actually you’re supposed to treat people as an equal. But how can you do that without diversity? Because everybody is different, so the diversity that you need to embrace.
Esi:
Absolutely, I completely agree, there’s nothing to include unless there’s diversity in the first
Ashleigh:
Yes, and I went on after that to work for Percy Hedley Foundation. And I wrote, I wrote a Personal Independence program for them, and it was basically around, it was around a little bit of job carving, because there was residents in there who had, who had, not only physical disabilities, but also like learning disabilities, and I wanted to prove that people with learning disabilities can also get jobs and things like that. So I set up an events planning team, and we did some events with Graham Danby, the famous opera singer from here, and it really worked well. But how I got into dancing, back into dancing, should I say? Is that they wanted to do a character dancing, so I had to go and engage with dance city, who were running this course, and they asked about my background. And a bit like you, my background was, was acting also, but obviously it incorporated the dance that people wanted to kind of keep me as an actress, because the dancing was obviously far out of people’s kind of reach at that Time, they didn’t really know how to teach it. So when I engaged with dance city, they were really excited about this. Employed me for five events, which I got paid for. So that was so that was a massive breakthrough. And then I did some equality work with them, which was amazing. And obviously I had to choose one or the other. You know, I had to choose whether I stayed at person Headley, where it was safe, or whether I came out and took a chance and did some dancing. No, and I decided to come out and do the dancing, because it was the first time that somebody had opened their arms and said, you know, we really want to learn from you. And they really did make I mean, they’ve still got a long way to go, so in the dance field, so the lot of people, but the fact that they’re making big strides like that is totally amazing. I actually got creative summer from them after I’d been in five events, and create a summer is where you create your own piece of work.
Esi:
Okay?
Ashleigh:
So I did a piece of work called message, not quite received, right? And it was, it was around equality and how I’m fed, but it was put into a dance piece which was quite clever, which is my YouTube channel, and it kind of breaks down barriers for all walks of life, because it tells you how people have threatened me and how how I said, Well, actually, you know my brain, because I’ve got cerebral palsy, my my body works faster than my brain can receive the messages. That’s why I called it message not quite perceived, because whenever somebody tells me you can’t do that, I just think, Well, I’m not listening to you, because there’s got to be a way. And I’m glad that I have that attitude, because somebody who’s weaker than me probably couldn’t deal with the things that I’ve had to deal with
Esi:
Absolutely and I think a lot, you know, lots of people on the podcast have mentioned before about one of the benefits of having disabled people in the workplace is the fact that as disabled people, we are problem solvers. But I think alongside that, as disabled people, because we face adversity and prejudice all of the time, we are really strong people, and we do just, you know, battle through and put our heads down. But as you say, not everybody has the same level of confidence and the same level of knowledge that actually they are entitled to achieve what they want to achieve. And I think that’s what quite often stops people.
Ashleigh:
It is what stops people. And that, you know, when people say there aren’t a lot of people in the workplace with disabilities, I kind of get that, because if you were, if you didn’t have a lot of confidence, and you were constantly told you’re not very good and you can’t do that, you wouldn’t want to go back, because it makes you feel rubbish. The only reason that I sort of plowed on was because eventually I did achieve and I got promotion and things like that, that actually the people who gave me those things realized that actually it makes the workplace stronger to do that, and because it was a school for disabled people, because they employed disabled people, also more people wanted to come to the school, yeah, yeah, because I was, because I was a role model to their children.
Esi:
Yeah, that’s absolutely brilliant. And it’s kind of leading by example, isn’t it?
Ashleigh:
And that works?
Esi:
Yeah, it does absolutely
Ashleigh:
Sometimes actions speak louder than words, and that’s exactly what that shows people, isn’t it? You know,
Esi:
I completely agree. I completely agree. Actions definitely speak louder than words, especially in the field of disability, where most of our barriers are down to attitude.
Ashleigh:
Yes. I mean, people can say they don’t discriminate, but you don’t know that. Yes, to prove it, do you?
Esi:
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, completely agree. Okay, so you’ve given quite a few examples of the challenges that you face in the workplace. You’ve talked a lot about the discrimination that you’ve had to overcome. Are there any more challenges that you’d like to tell us about?
Ashleigh:
Just kind of how it makes you feel happy once you’ve kind of achieved in the workplace? Yeah, but you’ve got it. You’ve got to work 10 times as hard as somebody able bodied to get there. And I you know when people use the word inspiration, right now, it’s okay to use it, but actually, the day we crack society, people stop calling us an inspiration, because everybody has talent. You know, when you wouldn’t walk up to a disabled you wouldn’t walk up to an able bodied person and say you’re an inspiration. The only reason that we’re inspirations is because there aren’t enough of us doing it.
Esi:
Yeah, yeah. I knew that’s a really good way of looking at it, yeah. Nicely, yeah.
Ashleigh:
And the day that somebody just sees that we’re the same as everybody else, and we do have talents, and they stop using that word, we will know that we’ve cracked society. But until that point, we’ve got to be seen as inspiration so that other people can know that they might be able to do the same.
Esi:
Yeah, I never thought of it like that before, but kind of in a role model way more than an inspiring person for breathing, yes, yeah, brilliant, excellent. And I suppose that, you know, that will be, you know, when people stop calling us inspirations, because I also hate the term inspiration when it’s referring to disabled people. I mean, that will be the real pat on the back. Won’t it like, you know, we are equal now, but you don’t have to see us as inspiring. And brave.
Ashleigh:
Absolutely, you know, I’d like to see more disabled people in the media. I know that, and I know that people, you know, there is more people in the media now than there ever has been, and that’s great, but they’ve still got a long, long way to go, a long, long way to go, because it they haven’t tipped the balance where it’s equal yet at all. And you know, you know something, if they did it, everybody else would follow, because media is something that leads.
Esi:
Yep, absolutely, absolutely a lot of people support. Most of people’s perceptions is down to what they see and hear in the media. So, absolutely So, rather than seeing a disabled person saying, Oh, wow, there’s a disabled person on TV, isn’t that great, it’s just another person on TV.
Ashleigh:
You know, even if they did a program about educating people, using job craving and things like that, that would massively break down barriers that nobody else has been able to break because if there is only a couple of people talking about job carving, and you’ve never heard the term very much, then then one or two people are never going to break it for people, are they?
Esi:
Yeah, no. Very true. Very true. So what advice would you give to disabled employees or disabled people looking to get into employment,
Ashleigh:
I would just hope that they had thick skin and realized that actually, if you and I can do it, then so can everybody else. You know, I would, I would actually hope that there is more people that will give people chances. And I, you know, I do hope that people listen to this and think about job carving. I know that a lot of people, I got a lot of good feedback when I did a video on my YouTube channel about it, and a lot of people, it made a lot of people sit up and think that they could actually do it in their company. And that’s what you want people to actually, you know, think about and actually get on the back of really, don;t you?
Esi:
Absolutely. I mean, if that’s the message, there’s going to be less than the job done, really, isn’t it?
Ashleigh:
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Esi:
So what advice would I mean, is it the similar advice for the job carving the advice that you’d give to managers who are managing disabled people or recruiting people in the workplace to open their mind out to disabled people coming to work for their organization?
Ashleigh:
Yes, because disabled people actually contribute like, something like 80 billion pounds a year to society. So if you actually employed a disabled person, more disabled people would flock to your business because you do that, because people who actually stay at home and don’t can’t face going into the workplace, they still go out shopping and things like that, and they relate to disabled people, because actually, if somebody sees somebody in a job role, they actually look up to them and think, actually, if you can do it, I’m going to come to the company, I’m going to invest my money, because they’ve invested in You. Does that make sense.
Esi:
That makes sense. It makes absolute sense, absolutely so again, leading by example, having disabled people in the roles where they’re customer facing and on the phone and doing the strategy roles, so that other disabled people can see what is possible and also see the companies are inviting them in and being open minded and inclusive about disability,
Ashleigh:
And even if it’s somebody with learning difficulties who’s only got one skill, but it’s a skill that nobody else has got, you employ them because actually that skill is important, and it actually has a knock on effect to who comes to your business.
Esi:
It does indeed absolutely brilliant. So we’re just going to talk a little bit about you as a consumer during the podcast. I always ask interviewees a little bit about themselves as consumers in the market buying a product or a service. So as a disabled consumer, what would you say was your biggest barrier to buying a product or service
Ashleigh:
Just when people, when people make things difficult, when it’s not accessible, you you wouldn’t go in, you know, like, if, if, if it was in a shop, if it, you know, if there was clothes all over the floor, you wouldn’t go and wheel all over them you were going In. Or if it was, you know, I’ve been outside the pubs, and there’s been steps and they’ve told you to actually ring a bell if you’d have disabled. If people make it that difficult, you’re not going to go in. Are you
Esi:
Absolutely,
Ashleigh:
You know, often still on trains. Now, I know that, as per assist, you can ask for assistance and things, but I’ve had experiences where I’ve asked for assistance and assistance hasn’t come. So that makes you fearful to go on again, just in case that happens again.
Esi:
No, completely, completely agree. Sue. I mean, you picked out three pointers. You picked out three things that I’m going to pick out one of the points that you mentioned. So you mentioned, and I can completely relate and empathize with that when you maybe go up to a pub or a shop or a venue with a step and then they ring the bell, and quite often, not only is that not inviting at all, but the bell is out of reach as well, so you can’t actually reach the bell in the first place to press it. But what would your advice to businesses be in that situation to make it a bit more inclusive?
Ashleigh:
And I know that some buildings are like that because the listed buildings and they can’t do anything about it, but there must be something that they can do. I would ask them to come, come to somebody that advertises like you and I, who could actually walk around the building and show them exactly what to do and how easy to make it. You know, me and my boyfriend went, and luckily, my boyfriend’s able bodied, but we went to stay in a hotel overnight, and actually I couldn’t get into the bathroom, and it was a disabled room, and I couldn’t the bed was too high for me to get into, and we had to ring the staff, and they had to come and help me lift. They had to come and help Graham lift me. They then got into trouble about it, but there was nothing that they could do because it was, and I actually talked to the engineers afterwards and actually tried to help them. And it was actually a massive chain, you know, wasn’t just a little it was actually a retro train that you think, you know, they should be better at this.
Esi:
Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, in this situation, I can hear people that don’t know a lot about disability thinking, Oh, well, that’s a massive health and safety risk for our staff, which is totally is, but it’s also a massive health and safety risk for you. But also on top of that, it kind of, it’s not it kind of devalues who you are as a person.
Ashleigh:
And I think the big mistake that people make is because it’s low now to say that you’re disabled friendly, everybody says they’re disabled friendly. What you’ve got to look for is that they say they’re fully accessible. Because if they don’t say they’re fully accessible, they just mean that somebody who walks on a pair of crutches could get in, and that’s not always suitable to somebody in a wheelchair or somebody who needs hoisting up, you know that type of thing?
Esi:
Well absolutely. I mean, I do know about you, but when people say that they’re accessible, I always double check by asking a series of very specific questions, because I, like you, have turned up to venues or places where I’ve been promised accessibility and I can’t do the things that you know actually is a basic need, like brushing my teeth or something like that, because I can’t get in the bathroom. Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right that when businesses say they’re accessible, it shouldn’t just be something that they throw around. It should be something that they’ve really invested time and energy and thinking about.
Ashleigh:
Just to go back to, you know, when I used to work at Percy Headley, a lot of their service users were quite severely disabled, and often they used to use strategies like not drinking and Things like that, so that they could go out independently. And I just used to think that’s going to affect the health they’ve got to do that because places aren’t accessible for them, because a lot of them needed to be hoisted. And how many, how many disabled toilets do you go in that don’t have a hoist?
Esi:
Yeah, my apologies. Carry on.
Ashleigh:
How many disabled toilets do you go in that actually have just got a sign on the door? Because actually, when you pull into them, you can’t shut the door behind you, yeah, you know. And a lot of people need to have two pairs with them. So it’s like, how much you know, and I only you only realise that when you go and see somebody that’s worse off than you, and that’s like, how many elephants can you get in a telephone box? And you’ve got to laugh, because you would cry, really, you know.
Esi:
Actually, I think you’re absolutely right, and when I publish this podcast, I will also put alongside an article that I found a few months ago stating the amount of changing places in relation to the amount of accessible leads. So changing places are places where people can be hoisted onto a bed and also be supported via a voice, to be to be helped in the bathroom. Yes, very few of them. So meaning that disabled people that need that extra support can’t go to the loo when they’re out and about.
Ashleigh:
That’s absolutely right. And you know, the people that I’ve worked with who can’t do that, they actually learn not to drink and things like that, and that can have a knock on effect to people’s health, can’t it? You know
Esi:
Absolutely which is terrible, which is absolutely terrible, which has more of an impact on to the health system and everything. So I say it doesn’t help the economy in the long run, if they just want to think of it like that as well.
Ashleigh:
Yes, I know, even, even down to, you know, I know some people don’t see it as a disability, but obesity is really high at the moment, and I’ve seen people who are really obese, who got massive issue with food. They can’t access disabled toilets because the doors are too narrow, and you just think that can’t help them either.
Esi:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We need to. We The world needs to change to reflect the society that we live in,
Ashleigh:
And it’ll only be people like you and I who do that, but there aren’t enough of us at the moment, you know, to make a big enough difference. Yeah, yeah, which is why I created I could. I’ve always got jobs through, through, you know, I’ve been in a job and then somebody’s head hunted me for something else, something else and something else. So I’ve been very lucky like that. But when I actually chose to leave Percy Headley and go into the dance, and the dance sort of wasn’t as permanent as Percy Headley, and then I had to find something else to do. I felt as though I still, there’s still an element of where you have to prove yourself massively. Because I had gone from like being head hunted because people could see how good I was, I felt the need to do two things, set up a YouTube channel which engaged with people, and they could see what I could do without actually asking the questions. So if they saw it and were impressed, they contacted me, which worked. But secondly, the YouTube channel also educate the world that we live in, because everybody goes on the internet and everybody likes to be educated in that way.
Esi:
Yeah, absolutely, I completely agree. And you saying that you get your job through headhunting and having to prove yourself as a disabled person goes a long way to explain why the majority of disabled people are self employed? Because when people won’t offer them an opportunity, you know, and we want to earn our own living, we think, Well, yeah, exactly, and prove people from the outside in which is the wrong way to do it. But you know, it does create a whole bunch of advocates, and those are the people that we need as well.
Ashleigh:
And the thing is, you use what God gave you, yeah, and people need educating, and you can educate them by actually, nobody can write what you know. So why not use the skills that you’ve got, even if you can’t get into the workplace? And it seems like a big thing to set up on your own. Actually set up on your own. And if you get one job, another job will come in eventually. That tends to be what happens. You know, you only have to be seen once by somebody, press one person, and then, you know, it’s like Chinese whispers. I told somebody else about it, and they want a bit of it. You know, that’s what you need to do. Create a frenzy, really
Esi:
I completely, I completely, I completely agree. So we’re at the end of the podcast now. Is there anything else you would like people to know?
Ashleigh:
I would just like people to know that I didn’t actually get any funding. I’d written the way for funding to create this, to create this project called message not quite received, which was working in hospitals and using using dance as a rehabilitation tool. Instead of just kind of, you’ve got to do this stretch because it’s good for you, you’re kind of making it really fun for people brilliant, and I’d gone and talked to doctors, they were really impressed by it. I got through to the third round of every piece of funding that I did, and never got the funding. So what I’m trying to do now is build up my subscribers on the YouTube channel. And I know people don’t normally use YouTube in this way, but what I actually want to do is my YouTube channel, build up my views so that I can make revenue from the YouTube channel to actually run the project and actually employ disabled people on the project so that they don’t have to try and break down barriers
Esi:
That sounds amazing. What we are going to do afterwards is post the YouTube link on the blog. So anyone that would like to watch the YouTube video or subscribe can do.
Ashleigh:
And if you want to watch anything you’re interested in, if people subscribe people can ask me questions and actually tell me what they want to know on the YouTube channel and business or any organisation you are in can get a bit of free training also.
Esi:
That sounds amazing, sounds really really good actually. Thank you so much for your time today.
Ashleigh:
Thank you
Esi:
I have really enjoyed talking to you.
Ashleigh:
I couldn’t thank you enough for making contact and it has been a great pleasure to meet you
Esi:
You to Ashleigh, speak to you again
Ashleigh:
Okay, speak to you soon
Esi:
Okay bye.