Transcript
Esi:
Disability Inclusion can seem like a mountain to climb, especially when you have no starting points. Knowing where to start can be the toughest part of it all. It’s like staring at the blank piece of paper until you have something to jump off from. It’s quite confusing. I have created a series of complimentary downloads that will help you get off the starting block, understand the basics of the social model of disability, or present a business case for disability inclusion within your business. To receive this and much more, visit celebrating disability.co.uk and click the download link on the set to receive a series of six helpful downloads. Start you on the road to disability inclusion within your business. Hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of part of me podcast. I am joined by yet another interviewee today, so we are just going to introduce him, and he will introduce himself and tell you about his experiences. So hello, interviewee, hello.
Denis:
My name is Denis Kelly. My disability is from a traumatic brain injury as a result of bone traffic accident in 1986.
Esi:
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Sue, Sue. How is that? How is that left you disabled? How are you impaired by that?
Denis:
I’m impaired from the left side of the body, pretty much the arm and the leg and when I was diagnosed, my parents were told I actually had cerebral palsy. That is not the case, because in lack of action to brain and you can only get until the age of five. So it was a traumatic brain injury where it’s very similar symptoms to cerebral palsy being on the left hand side of the body.
Esi:
And also cerebral palsy usually get either during childbirth or the very few months, few months afterwards. So it’d be very difficult to get it as a result of an injury, wouldn’t it?
Denis:
It would it can happen up until the age of five, in rare circumstances, it’s similar, so I think at the time, the doctors just put a term on it.
Esi:
So we’re going to talk a little bit about how your disability affects you a bit later in the podcast, but I was just wondering if you could tell us a bit more about what you do and how you got to what you did today.
Denis:
Well, I’m a social care worker at present to become a life coach and my strength life coach, particularly in the area of disability. So and how I got there, I went. I was actually trying to be a sound engineer, so I always done things in my life. That last part stacked against me. I always done them anyway, like a stone engineer, you need two hands and do the extra. Yeah, I’ve met. I met considerable, considerable social barriers trying to get employment in that area. So I went back to college, and I done a degree in psychology, and I went on to do a master’s in this building.
Esi:
Okay, brilliant.
Denis:
Now I’m doing it now. I’m doing a diploma in life coaching, so I’m going to combine all the three, my degree, my master’s degree, my, you know, publication in life, coaching, yeah.
Esi:
Yeah. I mean, it’s quite, you know, as a sound engineer. I mean, you know, I can relate a little bit. I trained as an actress, and everybody told me that I wasn’t able to be an actress due to the fact that I was disabled. Do you find that you didn’t continue with your sound engineering due to perceptions, or was it something that were You were physically unable to do?
Denis:
Well, I was never given a chance to really, um, so it’s not that I wasn’t able to do it. Wasn’t given a chance, right? I did work in number of different radio stations, kind of in on a community level. So now, when I got on flight, you know, yeah, I did kind of work in a professional capacity for the radio station, and that was what kind of drew me to work on, with communities on people with disabilities and radio so I used to train these people to develop their own community projects.
Esi:
Okay, so tell me a bit more about the social work you do now. Do you work with disabled people themselves, or do you work with everyone?
Denis:
I work well, mainly with people with disabilities, and that would be more the intellectual side of sort of things. Yeah, I work for St John of Gunsmoke. I do work with young people also in Tusla. That’s it. That’s the organisation in Ireland for protecting children, safeguarding children.
Esi:
Yeah, excellent, brilliant. Sue. I mean, this is one of the questions we talked about, so I don’t mind. I hope you don’t mind me asking. I noticed your technology is slightly different to mine when it comes to disabled person and person with a disability. So you mind just talking a little bit about what your kind of ethos is, and why you use the term person with disability rather than disabled person. And because this seems to be a subject that people are really interested in, that’s fine. So why do you, why do you choose the term people with disabilities?
Denis:
Well, because it’s more the academic term in my master’s. It’s just the way. It’s just under, um, under any legislation and under any policy in regard to disability, that’s the terminology that is used. Okay, okay. I did work in an organisation as part of my disability Federation of Ireland, as part of my college work. I work for them, and that was the terminology that they that was used, and it seems he’s more kind of a politically correct version. Okay.
Esi:
Interesting, interesting. It’s a very interesting topic. When I work with comfort, and I’m sure you do too, when I come across people or I work with businesses, a lot of their questions are about language. And a lot of what stops people from in companies from engaging with disabled people, or stopping them from feeling confident when engaging with disabled people is knowing what terminology to use, so it’s interesting to get different people’s perspective on why they use different terms. So thank you very much for that. So we’re going to move on to just your life at the moment as a disabled person or a person with disability, if you don’t mind. So could you tell us about three challenges you face, perhaps in the workplace or in your life due to your disability, and explain to us a little bit about each
Denis:
Well, the workplace is a big one, because I actually am. I’ve done I’ve done a medication and I’ve done medication course the other day, and because I wasn’t able to kind of properly work with two hands, I wasn’t able to actually pass the course. But my, my it does, especially in the interview process. It does, it does have the extra important of learning the learning the about company, and learning about the role, but you actually have to sell the disability. I find that you can’t just sell yourself. You have to sell the disability because they’re thinking about that. They’re thinking about in the infield. So why not talk about, you know?
Esi:
So can you just elaborate a little bit about that. When you say, sell the disability, what do you mean? With Disabilities?
Denis:
Are Yes, inclined to they’re more they’re less inclined to leave a role once they get a role. Yeah, they bring vacation, they bring persistence, because they have to work. They have to work harder than anyone else. Absolutely what you’ve achieved. So you’re bringing that kind of dedication and that kind of assistance that no, a lot of people probably wouldn’t, wouldn’t have on the same level in that sense. So you’re bringing a lot of skills, and you’re less likely to leave a role people, people understand people with people with intellectual disabilities. I mean, research shows that productivity is more positive as productivity is more is higher, because these people just dedicate their work and are less likely to concept. They’re less likely to slack off. You know, not saying that everyone knows, but there’s less a chance. So companies need to be aware that there’s so much benefits to hiring people with not just physical disabilities but intellectual
Esi:
Absolutely. So when you say, sell your disability, you’re talking about selling the benefits of having a disabled person in the workplace.
Denis:
Yeah, and I think it’s like the reasons, reasons why employers may not may be reluctant personally with a disability, is the lack of disability awareness training or the fear of the unknown consequences and the lack of knowledge about how to accommodate people with disabilities. And then there’s the fear that a person with disability will have held through the world the adequate productivity. And then there’s a lack of information about the support available to employers. I think it’s all I think it’s all about, it’s all about disability awareness over you know,
Esi:
Absolutely, yeah, no, I completely agree. I couldn’t agree with more with you, actually, although all those things that you mentioned about people worrying about what might happen and not knowing about the resources that available and the support that’s available to them can get in the way of seeing what a productive member of staff, a disabled person, can be in the way. Yeah. Sorry, my apology, carry on.
Denis:
You think about we have in northern in the UK, probably similar, but northern we have the Employment Equality acts 1919, 24 which a lot of legislation came from. But these acts are very well good. They say that, they state that a person cannot be discriminated against doing certain disability. And now somebody told me that they cannot, they cannot discriminate against it because, and I said, I said to that person, of course they can. Of course they can, and there’s no law to say because they can discriminate against you. They don’t let your hair. Why couldn’t they discriminate against you for having a disability? They just can’t directly discriminate against you absolutely. Well, it totally exists, my view, and probably yourself the same the way around that is not legislating. Legislation is all very well and good, but disability awareness, time being aware the supports available and the things that a disabled person can bring to workplace,
Esi:
I completely agree with you. I completely agree Sue if you were going to offer advice to disabled, to disabled employees who are going to be working in the workplace, who might be looking for a job, or whoever, who might actually already be in the workplace, what do you think your advice would be?
Denis:
Well, a lot of people, a lot of people fear and this question come up on my podcast and probably yours, people fear that they they have to disclose, when to disclose their disability, common player now, just, just to, just to make clear and and sky. What companies are organising? Organisations say that you’re under no obligation are all to to
Esi:
Disclose the disability
Denis:
Yeah, Your Honour, no obligation. Are all unless the job requires the use of two hands or two legs. You’re under no obligation to disclose that information this point where it says on the application form You’re under no obligation, because that puts you at a distinct disadvantage. I know the only, the only time, the only time you are obliged is maybe you need reasonable accommodation, and employers must take reasonable steps to accommodate the needs of employees with disabilities, and that is only in your best interest. You’re not even even, no obligation even to disclose it, then it’s just in your best interest. So people, this is a potential barrier. People are worrying about what employers might feel and then going into a situation is that the extra pressure of learning, of trying to sell your disability, along with trying to sell yourself as an employee.
Esi:
So would you advise disabled employees, if I mean some disabilities you can’t hide. For example, mine is a very physical disability, and your disability is a quite physical disability. And so we walk into the room, it’s very obvious that we’re disabled. But would you advise people with hidden disabilities not to disclose, or would you just advise them to do what they feel is right?
Denis:
Yeah, I don’t advise at all. I say, I’d say, if it feels right field, okay, all I’m saying is they’re under no legal obligation to do so, yeah.
Esi:
Okay, cool.
Denis:
I don’t know what it’s like in the UK, but in Ireland, it’s under no obligation to disclose that information.
Esi:
Yep, no, it’s exactly the same in the UK as well. And as you say, you know it might be helpful if there’s any adjustments you need, or if you feel as though by disclosing your disability, it will help in some way, like it will help your manager to understand and to empathise with the support you need. But as you say that you’re under no obligation at any time to disclose a disability or right Sue. What advice would you offer managers who are managing disabled people in the workplace?
Denis:
Well, I would say to to just become more disability aware, to increase the level of understanding. Because what, what doesn’t, what doesn’t, what we don’t understand, scare us. Scares us. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s all about training. You know, if the managers feel the need to seek any information about any government supports that’s available to them, because there’s an awful lot of government supports, reasonable accommodation, kind of grants start available? Yeah, absolutely, people with disabilities and these are all available, and maybe employers aren’t aware of of this, of these kind of them grants and just to familiarise yourself and become more aware, definitely, but that’s the key thing, is to become more aware and educate yourself with the lifestyle who provides awareness training and just an organisation who would provide that, and I’d say the same for your fellow employees, because, again, what you don’t know scares you, what we don’t understand scares us.
Esi:
That’s very, very true. And so you know, just on the topic of training, would you advise people to go for any type of training or specific training?
Denis:
Well, somebody who specialised in the area of who provides this kind of training, you know, just disability awareness training, perceptions of how you treat people with disabilities.
Esi:
Brilliant, excellent. So at the moment, we also talk on this podcast about experiences as a consumer and what the barriers to buying goods and services are for disabled people. So do you mind telling us that from your from your experience as a disabled consumer buying a good or a service, what would you say was your biggest barrier?
Denis:
I suppose just again, it’s attitudinal barriers. It’s social barriers of how the person selling the product receives their perceptions towards you and their product. And you know how my How might come back on them? Are they? They might be worried about any legal obligations. If this person, this person fails to be out there, injures himself in one way? Am I gonna get? Gonna face their legal ramifications? So that can be a significant barrier that people face and when, when trying to buy a service? No. Fortunately for me, I haven’t faced any barriers, but I do know from research that people can face these problems.
Esi:
People in the past have talked about things from barriers to buying things digitally online, so problems with accessing websites to actually when you go into a physical store, being able to get around the store because there’s too many rails of clothing and too many things on the floor. Then other somebody else. Last year, Roland talked about the fact that he’s got dyspraxia, and so if the signage isn’t right, he struggles to find his way because dyspraxia, he he he struggles with directions and coordination. So the other are those, any of the impaired, or any of the barriers, sorry, that you personally can relate to,
Denis:
Not in a sense, physical barriers, but more so that definitely the social barriers, yeah, due to society.
Esi:
Okay, okay, brilliant. Thank you very much. And so what would you suggest to solve these barriers?
Denis:
And well, it’s all about it’s about environmental design. Environmental Design, I think, certainly Ireland, I don’t know, in the UK, but with an awful long way to come in terms of Universal Design for people with disabilities. Yeah,
Esi:
Yeah Can you give me an example?
Denis:
Well, in Ireland, in Ireland, we have a lot of I’m not talking,about shops now but we have a wheelchair access is very limited because of poor road design and paths.Crossing the street a person might have to go 100 yards out our way to just cross the street,
Esi:
Right? Okay,
Denis:
It might be the same in chapters, the way elevators might be of they might be out of them can’t be not working out of order. The elevators that do lift up, the kind of manual ones, I don;t know if you have them in the UK. You kind of open them. Now these doors open outwards. If a person is to open the door, it’s very hard for a person in a wheelchair to kind of open the door without the door crashing into them.
Esi:
Yeah i know the ones
Denis:
They’re to swing the door left, they can go right. They can move to right in order to swing the left. It’s just maybe design, having the staff there to, like, a lot of these, a lot of train stations, and they don’t have the, they don’t have the manpower even to deal with the deal with putting rams down, yeah, and instead, like, the accommodation isn’t built into the isn’t built into train. There’s no ramp between the train and platform. Big gap between the right train and platform. Yeah. So in order for you to get off the train, you need another human being to put down a ramp for you, which is totally kind of, you know, so outrageous really, because it’s not really accessibility. At the end of the day, you need a man there. You have to ring 24 hours advance, make sure there’s somebody there, you know. So these are all significant players.
Esi:
I completely agree with you, and I can relate to you, going back to your earlier point about the manual list. That’s exactly what I call them as well. Manual lists, list that for people that don’t know that you have to hold your finger down to get it up to the top on the bottom, and they’re quite often outside of old buildings or listed buildings as well. They can’t actually change the look of the building, so they’re plonked onto the corner, and they’re completely inaccessible. I always find them quite ironic, because you have to be able bodied to be able to open them, as you say, in the first place, which if you need to use the lift for that reason, you know you’re not able bodied. So, you know, it’s quite ironic. And also, you know, I can completely relate to what you’re saying about the trains as well. Absolutely, though, we need to have people helping us, if we’re in a wheelchair, to get on and off the trains. And quite often, the ramps are there and the supports there, but the attitudes not there. So as Esi, you have to book 24 hours in advance, but I didn’t invite you, but I didn’t always know where I’m going 24 hours in advance. And if I’ve been delivering training, I’m not going to guarantee that I’m going to get on the train that I booked, because maybe a conversation has come up at the as a result of what I’ve delivered that people want to talk about. And actually, I don’t want to leave a client to get on a train, yeah? And so I completely, you know, it’s a different country, but the problems are still the same.
Denis:
Yeah, Like, my pieces, in my primary way, was on social stigma, as perceived by people with physical disabilities, in the area, yeah, and I found that a lot, like a lot of people, that they won’t if they have to go somewhere and they have, they join a pub, if there’s about 100 barriers between their house and the pub that can easily put them off. And you know, this can lead mental health issues, you know, can lead to being exploited, being, you know, socially, socially stuexcludedpid, and it can lead to a lot of mental health problems.
Esi:
Yeah, so, I mean, all these barriers are for our are in the way for disabled people kind of being active members of society in their own right. As a non disabled person, I’m sure there’s some people listening that think, well, that doesn’t really relate to me. So it doesn’t, you know, not that it doesn’t matter, but I don’t see what I can do about it. So can you explain why it’s important? You know why it does relate to non disabled people?
Denis:
Yeah. I mean, it’s very hard to understand if you’re not disabled, right? I think once, once it’s kind of spelled out, yeah, and once it’s you become aware of it. I think just think you can really open your eyes.
Esi:
So is there anything else you would like people to know.
Denis:
No, just like disability, being disability aware, and just putting yourself in the shoes of the person with disability, person, if a person has to enter a shopping centre and the lift isn’t working, which is mostly the case, they might have to go a mile or no place where I live, and you have to go good 200 yards around the corner and up a hill and back in the back street to get into the back entrance. If the list isn’t working, yeah, between, other than the social barriers, are the physical barriers there could be between those, between where they are and where they have to get to. There could be, there could be 15 barriers to get to that place that people don’t understand. Yeah, to get to get into lift. There might be, there might be a hill, and the person with the wheelchair, you know, it’s very hard to push yourself, and they might be having some problems. So that could be a significant barrier. They might be they might be aware of people watching them. They might be aware of what are physicals, what are kind of limitations that might affect them. So there could be for every barrier, there is about 10 barriers for every one barrier, people may see a lot of barrier. For the person with disability, there’s probably 10 barriers in the way before they get to that barrier.
Esi:
Yeah, I could also get better myself. Thank you so much for your time today. I’ve really enjoyed this has been such an interesting podcast. I’ve really enjoyed listening to you, and a lot of the things that you said, I kind of know myself, but you know, you’re coming at it from a different perspective as well, which is really interesting. So I’ve definitely learned something
Denis:
I hope so, because it’s like I said, if people, if people, if people are aware, which things might be very simple, I want somebody once on the intelligent and you’re gone, people can learn from this. Yeah, I’m completely more aware. Just be more aware of advantages that people with disabilities can bring and say, look, they have to work extra hard. Yeah, extra hard to achieve where today, yeah, and embrace them
Esi:
Brilliant, excellent. Thank you so much.
Denis:
And yeah, okay, thank you.
Esi:
Thank you. Bye. Thank you again for everybody for listening once again, to the part of me podcast. I hope you found it helpful again this month, next month, we will be joined by Daniel, who has autism and talking about his experiences of being a poet and having experiences in the workplace. We are looking for new interviewees to be interviewed on the part of me podcast. So if you or anyone you know would be interested in sharing their views and experiences of the workplace as a disabled person, please do get in touch, and until next time, I will see you next month. Thank you very much. Bye.
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