Episode Summary
The ability to advocate for ourselves isn't something most of us are taught. It often develops through experience, reflection and, sometimes, difficult situations that challenge how safe we feel to speak up.
In Part 2 of this conversation on The Equality Edit, Eve Mujinya and Esi reflect on the impact of not being listened to, what happens when people's rights aren't upheld, and why advocacy often becomes the only way to challenge injustice.
Rather than offering a checklist of solutions, this episode provides an honest insight into the emotional and practical realities of navigating discrimination. Through Eve's experiences, the conversation explores self-advocacy, community advocacy, bystander responsibility and the lasting impact of being heard—or ignored. It is a reminder that when organisations fail to act, the burden of creating change too often falls on the individual experiencing the injustice.
Transcript
Eve (0:00)
I sat there looking around the room and no one was advocating, no one was supporting me. So it felt like all the times I was continuously saying stop, can we move on, you know, it just didn’t have a wide enough effect.
And so when you are in those positions, you feel really isolated. that was me already kind of petering past professionalism anyway, because of the way I was saying things. And there were some moments where I, there were no choice words, you know, and that was fine. But people…
again just didn’t react and respond to it. So I was like, wow, like, like, I’m going up, I’m, I’m, I’m mirroring the right level of intensity and righteous anger to the insult, the injury, you know, the injustice here. But no one was seeing that that was a moment that someone needed support and there were men in the room, there were women in the room, there was so many different
different diversities. And so I just wish that would have changed. And I think because there was so much inability to act in supporting me in those moments, it made me feel very insular and isolated. And I couldn’t go from there to giving so much more of myself to say, get out, leave.
Esi (01:39)
Hi, welcome to the second part of the episode with Eve Mujina. So I just wanted to remind you where we left off last time, because we’re gonna start kind of in the middle of that conversation. So last time where we left off, Eve was talking about her bad experience of being at university and not receiving the support she needed and actually further than just not receiving the support, actually being detrimentally impacted and
and penalised as a result of not having that support. So that is exactly where we’re going to pick up on today’s episode. If you want to listen to part one in full, pause this episode where you are and then go and listen or watch that one and then come back and continue this episode. This episode is about 32 minutes long, I think. So I really, really hope you enjoy. Speak to you soon.
Esi Hardy (02:36)
So talking about kind of you touched upon kind of that’s the advice you would give to the university. So if that was in place, what kind of support would you have wanted in order to take that forward and advocate for yourself?
Eve Mujinya (02:49)
That’s such a good question because I think this is where a lot of people can find asking for help quite tricky. I would ask for a formalised complaint process to be put in place. I would want something put in writing.
to ensure that they’ve taken the necessary next steps in communicating what my experience was, why it was abhorrent, and what processes can now be put in place considering this is the first time they have possibly come across something like this happening.
how can we now put those processes in place would have been the action points I would have liked to see from the university, not just alleviating themselves
Esi Hardy (03:32)
What should we do next?
Eve Mujinya (03:33)
I think the university should have gone straight to the NHS. absolutely. Looked at those systems and figured out how they can put a process in place following an educator threatening a student. Yeah.
Esi Hardy (03:47)
The reason I asked you the question was twofold. One, thought, because I’m sure there’ll be people listening to this episode thinking, well, I don’t know how it could have done differently. And I think it’s important to articulate that, you know, that is not the experience that any student or anybody working in any situation should expect to exposed to.
Eve Mujinya (03:55)
Yes.
Esi Hardy (04:09)
there is learning for people in organisations and in EDI spaces to upskill the kind of the student support. I can’t remember what your supervisor was called, but upskill supervisors to know signs of when somebody needs support and how to offer that support.
Eve Mujinya (04:29)
Yeah, absolutely. And the very lucky thing is that the…
The fact that I just had a really lovely supervisor who also was an OT, she did help me through those times because she had all of those skills anyway. So she was able to ask the right questions, to get the right information, to understand how I was feeling so that I can name those things. And that helped me to process and to understand what was happening at the time. And actually that’s when I went on to
to find some, there’s like a department at the university that helps to support students when they’re going through any emotional or psychological experience that’s detrimental to their health and whilst they’re studying. So I was able to kind go away and apply for this department so that I can have six sessions of therapy to just help me.
to decompress and to understand all of the feelings that came up to the surface from such a horrible experience.
Esi Hardy (05:31)
That’s brilliant. And you’re right, I wasn’t actually referring to your supervisor, I was referring to the person in the placement that was meant to be your support. person that did actually discriminate against you. can’t remember what their role was called.
Eve Mujinya (05:44)
Yes, placement educator.
Esi Hardy (05:45)
That’s the one, the placement educator. So the other side
of that, that I think is really important to touch on is the importance of self and advocacy for another as well. So you articulated, your supervisors gave you the tools in order to advocate for yourself by helping you to really consider what it was that you wanted how you wanted to be supported and maybe perhaps signposted that you wanted that student support as well.
there any other advocacy elements that you wish had been available to you?
Eve Mujinya (06:17)
Absolutely, student voices. That would have been a great point of contact for me to have during that time because you get caught up in the doing in the placement that you forget that there’s all these other services that can be supporting you and actually I wish there was more signposting that happened so that I could go and seek student representation.
Esi Hardy (06:19)
Okay
Eve Mujinya (06:41)
to just help me to articulate myself in the best way because actually it could have been worse. I could have had a supervisor in the university that didn’t see my situation as empathetically as the supervisor that I did and maybe they would have completely dismissed what happened to me and would have advocated for me to go back to the placement and to get on with it.
Esi Hardy (06:54)
I know.
soon.
Eve Mujinya (07:07)
So having a student representative and someone completely removed from both supervision roles, supervisory roles, both at uni and at the NHS and placement would have been very beneficial for me to have so that I can have impartial advice and reconciliation devoid of the people that are in positions of power.
that are overlooking what I’m doing on my course and my grades. So that definitely would have been another route that I would have taken.
Esi Hardy (07:33)
Really?
Because I’m just thinking for many, would be really hard not to think, well, I can’t be open and honest with the people that have the power to grade me because they might grade me a result of what I tell them. So I’ll tell them that everything is good because I want to get a good grade. So having that impartial voice so important enable that non-biased judgment, but also to enable
students really trust in that process.
Eve Mujinya (08:06)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, completely.
Esi Hardy (08:10)
So let’s continue to talk about advocacy and self-advocacy, because I know that you and I, we’ve talked about this a lot, that it’s a really important kind of crux, but it’s not actually as easy as it sounds and as simple as it sounds for all the time for people.
Eve Mujinya (08:28)
It’s not, no, it’s taken me this entire journey that I’ve spoken to you about today to really get to a position where I have language around it and where I can identify these situations in real time because I think prior to this one chunk of my life, things used to happen and then I’d have to process it much later because I’ll just…
Esi Hardy (08:44)
Thank
Eve Mujinya (08:53)
continue to be living. But now because I’ve been able to kind of reflect on so many different situations that has happened in my life, I feel like when the things happen, when those things happen in real time, I’m able to recognize it and I’m able to become more aware of how it feels like in my body.
and the areas of tension that’s causing stress or postural differences or migraines or tiredness and fatigue and they all manifest in some different way but that’s something I feel like I am a bit more able to kind of recognise just within myself now and I then try to act.
very differently to how I would have done before.
Esi Hardy (09:38)
do you think that the kind of looping that back to kind of what we talk about therapy, does that come from kind of the work that you’ve done on understanding yourself?
Eve Mujinya (09:47)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think if I hadn’t given myself the real opportunity to step outside of my environment initially, I would have never learned just how much I was masking. And that was the first kind of like, you know, there was a crack in the door. And then I started to understand that I was very different from how I perceived myself.
And yeah, having therapy to help me to kind of move so much far forward was just like the blessing that I could have never ever expected to have happened. And I do feel like all of these things became a knock on effect to just make me who I am today.
there’s probably still a long way to go because I don’t ever see myself as like a finished version of me. But where I am right now is I think younger Eve would look at me and would feel safe enough to know that I could advocate for her.
Esi Hardy (10:49)
And I agree. think that just like inclusion therapy is a journey. It’s not a destination. don’t finish understanding yourself because we change all the time with people. have different experiences and we change and we see things through different lenses all the time. So there’s never an end to it. But I think the more we do it, the more we become comfortable and
used to accepting new ways of thinking really, so it becomes easier over time.
Eve Mujinya (11:20)
Yeah, absolutely. I do feel like the more you work on yourself, the more you work on the tensions and the challenges and the things that are quite difficult within the body.
is the more that you become aware of who you are and what’s really happening, because then you’re able to kind of like feed yourself in you warmth, if you need deep pressure, if you need lots of crunchy, lovely snacks, that’s what I give myself every evening.
Esi Hardy (11:50)
your perspective with self-advocacy or advocating for others, if anything more than what we’ve already described, what is it that gives you the confidence to be able to self-advocate?
Eve Mujinya (12:02)
Okay, so this is where learning about my neurodivergence has really made me understand my mechanisms of activism. And I think I have a strong…
like aversion to injustice. I mean that’s definitely something I know. It makes my blood boil. It’s like what happened with my teacher who was like you’re never gonna make something of yourself. I was like injustice and I rose the occasion for myself. But I’m like that with other people too and I think that’s where my activism comes from.
just seeing the poor behaviour and rules and barriers and red tape of society and wanting to be some sort of positive influence towards making those injustices right.
So that’s definitely where it comes from. And I think a lot of that has come from just the lived experiences that I’ve had as well. Knowing that I was once a young black girl who no one wanted to protect or no one wanted to advocate for and having to kind of like pull up my socks and do it myself, you know? So now I like to think that I am a better advocate for…
others in those situations because of that.
Esi Hardy (13:22)
really powerful, I think. And when I say that again, can be misconstrued as something that is quite a negative. But I mean that it’s really powerful because to see how the world should be and to see where you are to be able to drive that forward, think that that’s a really powerful drive behind it.
Every guest is driven by this need to advocate and activate for community. And I think that’s such a strong thing when it comes to equality and pushing forward equality, this need in us as people to do better for each other.
Eve Mujinya (14:02)
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think…
I mean, when I have to think about what advocacy means to me, activism has looked very different to me in lots of different experiences that I’ve had, know, having a voice is activism for me, because there are spaces where people do not want to hear me. And I come from a culture who also, you know, say women shouldn’t be heard, children shouldn’t be heard. So having a voice and leaning into that and
Esi Hardy (14:18)
Mmm.
Eve Mujinya (14:32)
and strengthening that voice because actually that’s probably one of my strengths. So being open and leaning into that space has been the biggest form of activism on a personal level. But guess advocacy for me is just being able to show up for yourself and for others when there is a form of injustice that’s…
Esi Hardy (14:43)
Mmm. Yeah.
Eve Mujinya (14:55)
being exposed or being confronted at that moment of time.
Esi Hardy (14:59)
showing up for yourself can mean so many different things to so many different people. Showing up for yourself is also just about protection sometimes. Whatever you need to do to protect.
Eve Mujinya (15:08)
Yeah, completely agree. That’s a really lovely way of putting it actually, because I don’t think people, I think protection gets a really negative kind of connotation sometimes and actually like being able to protect yourself is a vital skill to have, you know, and.
Esi Hardy (15:09)
Hmm.
Eve Mujinya (15:26)
I remember talking to my brother-in-law and he said, Eve, I was chopping something and the knife fell on the floor. But because he’s so football minded, he put his foot out like as if it was a football. And I said, where are all your survival skills? Your toe could have been chopped off. know, you don’t want to protect your feet in any way. But it’s such a great skill to have, to be able to be in self-preservation. But…
Esi Hardy (15:36)
my god.
Yeah.
Eve Mujinya (15:51)
as long as it doesn’t exclude or isolate you, then it’s a perfect mechanism to invoke change, I think.
Esi Hardy (16:00)
where does that contradict then? you have to protect your own self from emotional and or physical harm, where does that kind of clash into kind of advocating for change?
Eve Mujinya (16:14)
That’s a very good question. I think that’s where other people come into it because we are just small little children on the inside with all of our learnt behaviours and a prehistoric mind that will go into fight, flight or freeze mode. If you go into self-preservation mode and you’re frozen in that state, then you can’t.
Esi Hardy (16:24)
Okay.
Eve Mujinya (16:37)
always advocate for yourself, you know, and that is not abandoning your duties in any way, you’re just doing what your body feels capable of doing in that moment to protect you. But that’s where other people come in.
Esi Hardy (16:38)
Mmm.
Eve Mujinya (16:50)
into this whole community of advocacy because I think there’s advocating for yourself and advocating for others and I that’s a two-pronged approach you know you you have to be able to find different ways of doing that for others and and looking to your community as people that are an extension of the care that you have for yourself instead of being isolated or separate from that community.
Esi Hardy (17:17)
We had a situation not so long ago where you weren’t advocated for and I wasn’t there. all I could think of, and I think I went into a bit of overdrive when you were telling me, because I was so angry on your behalf, so mad that I, that I,
a moment I lost the ability to hear you and what you needed because I was so focused on if I was there I would have done X, Y and Z. I think that was a huge lesson for me as well that part of kind of supporting and advocating for somebody else is stopping, stepping out of where you are and hearing what the other person needs from you. not about
You know, I couldn’t go back in time and change the situation, but what I could do was hear what you needed from me and then act on that.
Eve Mujinya (18:07)
And I mean, we’ve had many conversations about this and I call what you…
you were going for at that time righteous anger, to be honest, because I think it came from all the right places, which is that place of injustice and wanting to do something to, to one, protect me in that situation. And two, to feel like you could do something to change how this, this whole
ugliness had happened and what comes next so that I feel like you’re supporting me in the best way possible. So I was able to already give lots of grace around that situation because I knew that it was righteous anger and it wasn’t inappropriate in any way.
I don’t believe anyway, I don’t think it was inappropriate. think that’s the right reaction to have. righteous anger is such an appropriate reaction to have to injustice.
And as we know, loads of movements happen for that very reason. And that became a bit of a movement in Celebrating Disability, didn’t it? Because you then went on to approach the people that were involved in that situation with…
Esi Hardy (19:14)
That’s it.
client.
Eve Mujinya (19:23)
the next steps of what you
wanted to do, yes the clients, and also you went on to change internal policies so that there’s like this whole holistic approach that was happening around me. Yeah so I hope you feel quite proud of yourself for how you responded to that because I think you also just kept checking in with me to make sure that there was…
that you were doing enough and that I felt like I was completely like leading the process whilst also feeling supported in leading the process in whichever way I felt comfortable with. So yeah, I hope you feel proud being an advocate for me in that moment because that was one of the best examples of support that I have ever had from someone that I’ve worked with in my life.
Esi Hardy (20:12)
thank you. think, I think rather than using the word proud of myself, I would say that I’m glad. is going to sound really weird, but I’m glad that it happened under my watch. Not that it happened at all. I’m not glad about that, I’m glad it happened under my watch because I wouldn’t have wanted to hear about this story and then somebody not showing up for you as a result. I’m glad, you know, I didn’t.
Eve Mujinya (20:36)
See you.
Esi Hardy (20:38)
didn’t happen. The kind of the response to it didn’t happen in a vacuum. got advice and I sought support as well. So The message to people listening is that you don’t you know, we don’t have to do this alone. we experience these things for ourselves, we don’t have to hold on to it on our own. And if we’re the person that needs to show up and do something, we don’t have to do that on our
can reach out to others ask for support research and then think about how can prevent these things. I mean, we can’t prevent it from ever happening again, unfortunately, but what we can do ensure we have the right processes to deal with it properly and in timely fashion.
Eve Mujinya (21:17)
I was commissioned and contracted to do a workshop in Basingstoke. It was going to be across just one day and I had a couple of participants that entered the hall where we were prepping a lot of the equipment and, and teas and biscuits and everything that comes with the lovely workshop we had put in place.
So I was in full organizing mode and one of the participants entered the hall. So I went over to them and there was a racist remark that was just quite crude. yeah, that was how I started my workshop day.
I did have to funnel him out because we still needed to continue organising the space. But I actually at that point, I didn’t really take much time out for myself. And as the day continued, there was more kind of like remarks and just statements he was making that was overly familiar, overly assumptive. And there was lots of conversations that were that were kind of triggered by this.
need to feel like he…
kind of like knew my culture and knew a lot about being like around a black female. And it was just, it was so directed towards race all the time that I think I remember saying halfway through, can we stop talking about race? And he was also a kind of participant that would say some comments about like women and just, just always making quite like
vulgar statements during the day and I think it did make the room uncomfortable for a lot of people. People could see how uncomfortable I was and the pressure it was putting on me to have to stay professional whilst having someone in the room that was continuously making all of these obscene remarks.
And it was just, it was one of the most difficult days because we spoke about it and, and there were things that I probably needed in that day that we went on to later discuss with the clients. Including just more people advocating for me on the day, as well as me using my voice so that they can amplify what I was saying in those moments instead of it happening and then the moment passing and then it happening again.
So there were so many things that were put in place afterwards through all of those lovely conversations that we had with the clients who actually expressed so much compassion and empathy. that was just, you know, having come from such an awkwardly, like it’s such an experience that brings up.
some forms of embarrassment, some forms of like feeling awkward because I tried to stay professional. I really tried my best to stay professional during that entire day and there were moments where I was losing sight of why I was being professional but also maintaining professionalism because he was not the only person there and it’s really hard to
to know where you draw that line and the degrees of separation when you’re being hired to do a role and you’re actively still trying to engage and promote other people’s experiences but knowing that you’re finding this whole entire situation really difficult to manage. So it brought up quite a lot of…
like new conversations with me.
It was all safely done. Like I felt like I can articulate myself how I wanted to, and I didn’t have to be like professional or anything like that because we’re quite jovial and we have quite a nice.
report between us anyway. But equally it meant that I could say the things I wanted to say in the way that I wanted to say it so that I be understood and so that you can convey what I’m saying if I didn’t feel up to conveying myself in the way that I wanted to at that time as best as possible to reflect exactly the words I was saying at that time.
Esi Hardy (25:18)
I learned from that was the importance that I think I took for granted and assumed that you would know certain things about how I would expect you to react and
took that for granted. And one of my biggest learnings really hit me when we would talk about it was, I can’t assume that somebody knows what I’m thinking. Because as soon as you told me, you know, I didn’t say anything because I was representing Celebrating Disability, I was just, felt awful because if it was me, would be representing Celebrating Disability, but that man would not be standing still for very long the same time, because for me, nothing’s more important
than personal dignity and safety and respect. But so if I was going to give, I was going to pass anything on to anyone listening as a result of my learning from that, would be never assume that people know how you want them to react to a situation.
Eve Mujinya (26:14)
Yeah, I love that because you’re right. I I sat in professionalism for far too long because it wasn’t Uplift With Her, wasn’t my own company where I can behave how I want to behave. And actually you, you, you said, no, I could have, I could have done all of that because it would have been righteous anger. would have been completely appropriate.
Esi Hardy (26:33)
Absolutely
Eve Mujinya (26:37)
to the proportion of injustice that happened that day. like, write on, continue on as you are. Because you can’t diminish how you feel in those moments. It needs to go somewhere. it’s, I mean, you joke about how things would have gone, but I’m sure you’re even in your form of righteous anger.
it would have been at the right level and it would have been exactly what it needed to be so that that person would have understood “This is wrong you you are not allowed in this space anymore and do not ever think that you will be allowed back in this space if you continue to act in this way”.
We’ve spoken quite a lot about the…
the fight, flight and freeze mode and for me I think I was so frozen in times because I sat there looking around the room and no one was advocating, no one was supporting me. So it felt like all the times I was continuously saying stop, can we move on, you know, it just didn’t have a wide enough effect.
And so when you are in those positions, you feel really isolated. that was me already kind of petering past professionalism anyway, because of the way I was saying things. And there were some moments where I, there were no choice words, you know, and that was fine. But people…
again just didn’t react and respond to it. So I was like, wow, like, like, I’m going up, I’m, I’m, I’m mirroring the right level of intensity and righteous anger to the insult, the injury, you know, the injustice here. But no one was seeing that that was a moment that someone needed support and there were men in the room, there were women in the room, there was so many different
different diversities. And so I just wish that would have changed. And I think because there was so much inability to act in supporting me in those moments, it made me feel very insular and isolated. And I couldn’t go from there to giving so much more of myself to say, get out, leave.
go away because it also felt people didn’t see how inappropriate
Esi Hardy (28:55)
Two points I’d like to make. Firstly, it’s very, I am aware it’s very easy for me to sit here and say, I would have done this, but you know, I wasn’t there. actually, I know that I freeze sometimes when people say things to me, I’m so sometimes I’m stunned into silence. so whilst I say, you know, this is how I would have liked to react.
But who knows because a situation is what it is in the moment the other thing I want to say is I don’t think it’s unprofessional to ask somebody to leave think that is in itself professional because not only are you holding kind of that that safety for yourself you’re also holding safety for the other people in the room as well
You’re influencing the behavior that other people should be emanating in themselves.
Eve Mujinya (29:41)
Yeah, completely true because sometimes people do not know how to advocate for others. So there is my experience of how I felt in those moments, but also when I have to step outside of myself, I can also appreciate that it was a group of people that would have never have been exposed to that kind of a situation
Esi Hardy (30:01)
and
coming to the end of our episode today. Is there anything else you would like people to know? We’ve quite vastly about a lot of topics. I think this session has been really helpful. is there anything you’d like to leave people with?
Eve Mujinya (30:15)
Yeah, absolutely. think one of the things I really want to leave everyone with is just finding their own voice of advocacy because for me it really is about using your voice and sometimes that’s going to be a quiet voice and sometimes that voice is going to be loud and bold and take up lots of space.
But just to make sure that your needs and the needs of others are seen, and respected, I think is probably the most important takeaway that I would like to leave our listeners with.
Esi Hardy (30:48)
love that. I really love that. And I think that’s relevant for individuals, but also leaders that might be listening in as well. I think sometimes when we talk about the responsibilities of leaders, we forget that leaders are humans too. so for leaders to feel that safety that support is really, important because as always, how can you lead?
Eve Mujinya (31:09)
Yes.
Esi Hardy (31:10)
something I ask every guest is who are your influencers?
Eve Mujinya (31:14)
So I grew up reading the works of Carl Rogers and a lot of his work is around humanism and person-centered care and so the biggest influencer for me has been his works.
It’s what triggered all of my interests around people, why they behave the way that they behave, how we can change ourselves so that we can get the best out of others. so yeah, that would have been, that’s where everything really started, I’ll be honest in saying.
And another person that really influences me now currently as an adult version of Eve is a lovely poet called Chimamanda Adichie and she speaks about the danger of a single story and it’s just quite…
revealing and telling how my life is kind of also manifested down that way. But she’s equally just such a beautiful example of what using your voice looks like in society to advocate and to fight against injustice and to be an agent of change.
Esi Hardy (32:07)
Okay.
amazing. I’ve never come across her, but I’m definitely going to be looking her up now. have come across Carl Rogers. He was my first window into the world of therapy. So yeah. will put both of those people in the show notes so people can look them up and have a look. Eve, I want to say thank you so much for spending time talking to me The Equality Edit. Where can people find out more about you?
Eve Mujinya (32:44)
So my website is www.upliftwithher.com. You can send me a message, you can send me an email or if you want to book to see me and have a consultation so that we can discuss anything goal related then please do feel free to get in touch with me on those platforms.
Esi Hardy (33:04)
Awesome. And
you Eve. It’s been lovely talking to you this afternoon.
Eve Mujinya (33:07)
Thank you as well, Esi I’ve loved it. I’ve always enjoyed our chats anyway. So it’s been nice kind of having this little corner of time for ourselves, but thank you so much for inviting me along.
Esi Hardy (33:18)
Thank you. And thanks so much, everybody, for listening or watching along as my favourite content creator, Eleanor Neale always says, don’t forget to like and subscribe. I’ll read if you put something in the comments. And I will see you next time. Thanks, everyone. Bye.