Psychological Safety, Not Perfect Answers

Andrew (00:00)
We definitely wanted to change the world in a day and we had to then really streamline back and go, okay, what can we do? What do we have the capacity to do? What’s important for us to do? They are all those key elements in putting that strategy together.

Esi Hardy (00:26)
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of the Equality Edit, where we unpack equality one story at a time. Thank you for tuning in on YouTube or listening on Spotify. I’m so excited that you come back every month to watch these. Today I’m joined by a person I’ve known for about four years through Celebrating Disability, Andrew Murray. And rather than explain how I know Andrew, I will hand over to him and let him introduce himself.

So hi Andrew!

Andrew (00:57)
Hi, Esi Thank you for the invite of joining the Equality Edit. We’re looking forward to today’s session. So as you said, I’m Andrew Murray. I’m Head of Learning and Development in Homes for Students. Homes for Students are an industry leading, independent, purpose-built student accommodation and management provider. And we are the largest independent provider within the UK and Ireland. My role within EDI

Esi Hardy (01:03)
Thank you very much for accepting.

Andrew (01:25)
has been over the last four years, really starting to understand how we build that into the L&D platform and equally how we can broaden that across the wider business.

Esi Hardy (01:38)
Awesome, brilliant. And we know each other, don’t we? Because I, Celebrating Disability, I should say, have delivered disability inclusion training for homes for students for about, is it like four and a half years, maybe like 20 years now or something?

Andrew (01:52)
Yeah, we’re coming into four and a half years and we’ve definitely been on the journey with your support over those four and a half years.

Esi Hardy (02:00)
It’s been really exciting. I was thinking about it this morning. It’s actually half the career of Celebrating Disability we’ve been working with you, so it’s really exciting.

Andrew (02:09)
I’m looking forward to that continuing as well over the next four and half years and more.

Esi Hardy (02:14)
Me too, me too. So we’re talking about equality today. So perhaps we can start by talking what equality means to you and why it matters so much to you.

Andrew (02:24)
Yeah, it’s a really good question and I think I’ve never really looked at equality as much as I have within my current role and for the last four and a half years, getting involved in our diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging program Together Is Better, coming up to five years ago now really made me look at how, why and how important equality is across the whole business,

and especially in the industry that we work in.

It’s also helped me really educate myself on why it’s important and understand what it is that we need to do, not just as an individual, but also as a business to support that wide range of not just our colleagues, but also our residents alike.

Esi Hardy (03:11)
I think it’s really important. There’s a lot of things I admire about the way Homes for Students tackles and thinks about equality. One of the things that I really admire is I find quite a lot with service-based businesses like Homes for Students, because you’re customer-facing, when it comes to equality, quite often they think about equality for…

the customers or the students or the patients or the guests that they are serving and neglect equality for employees. But homes for students have a really good kind of balance of equality for both sides and see the importance of that. Can you talk about how you’ve managed to kind of balance that and make sure it’s equal on both sides?

Andrew (04:00)
Yeah, I think I’m here today talking about it, but it’s definitely been a huge team effort with, you know, engaging with a lot of other colleagues. I remember having the first conversation with our director of people and culture staff when we first launched and started touring about Together Is Better, but it was never to be a tick box exercise. And that has been at the forefront of everything we’ve done from day one.

Esi Hardy (04:07)
Mm.

Andrew (04:28)
We decided to tackle and understand it from our colleagues’ point of view before we really started engaging with understanding it from our residents’ point of view. Our teams needed to be trained and needed to have an awareness before we could then go out and support equality within that last student facing and that resident facing platform, which we are now well underway at doing.

Esi Hardy (04:42)
Mm-hmm.

Brilliant, and I think that that kind of shows in the awards that you are winning and the of the statistics that you’re able to display as a result of that as well. So brilliant. Do you want to tell us a bit about that? Because I think it’s important.

Andrew (05:11)
Yeah, I think one of the awards we were most proud of as an organisation of winning was at the UK Culture Awards, where Together Is Better won DE&I strategy ⁓ of the year. And that, you know, we were up against some real strong competition and some huge corporates. We don’t have our own team. It’s done with support from our communications team.

and why do people function, it’s led by our director of people and culture. So we don’t have a specific team. And I think everyone who is involved wants to be involved and have that real understanding, passion to want to learn also.

Esi Hardy (05:53)
Yeah, and I think that makes a difference the fact that it’s led by people that want to lead it and also there’s no specific kind of well this lives over here and we’re going to get on with the rest of their jobs. So Homes for Students are by way of doing that able to emanate inclusion and equality into the DNA of what you’re doing so it comes out more naturally and I would hazard a guess that people that apply for roles

in Homes for Students have that on the forefront of why they might want to be working for you in the first place.

Andrew (06:27)
Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes a lot of organizations are scared to try things because they may get it wrong. We’re not perfect, you know, we’ve learned, especially, you know, over the four and a half years of working with Celebrating Disability, and we have got it wrong sometimes. But it’s about, you know, we wanted to embed that into our common language for people to feel that they have that psychological safety to be

you know, their authentic selves within the workplace. Again, very much, I’ve been on very much of a personal journey since joining Homes for Students feeling that I can be my authentic self in the workplace. And I think when people see that from from leaders who are leading the wider D&I strategy, it helps them then go, well, if they feel comfortable, we can also feel comfortable too.

Esi Hardy (07:19)
Tell me a bit more about kind of what it means

to feel your authentic self in the workplace. Because over the years, kind of, I’ve struggled with that notion in itself. The fact that we can’t all bring our whole selves to work. I’ve always said, well, if I brought my whole selves to work, I’d probably be in pajamas, listening to nothing else but Robbie Williams all the time. The Cavern Club, for example. No offense to the Beatles, I love the Beatles, but it would be more about take that and Robbie Williams than anything else.

Andrew (07:41)
Yeah.

Esi Hardy (07:50)
So,

I mean, I am a bit cynical when talking about kind of bringing my authentic self to work. I understand that it also means kind of not having to mask who I am as a person and

not struggling to fit in the way I need to work in the workplace. But can you tell me from your own words what that means?

Andrew (08:11)
Yeah, I think it was very early on within my career, within Home to the Students. I remember having a conversation with my line manager, who was also the lead of the Together is Better strategy. And we were talking about what actually does it mean? And being a member of the LGBTQ plus community, I never spoke about that for the first three months of joining the business. And then

It come up in conversation and my boss was like, I didn’t know. And I was like, do you need to know? And she was like, no. And we had a real good conversation, you know, and we, we still talk about that to this day, you know, we laugh about that, conversation now because, actually it felt like I come out again. And I think for, you know, for anyone joining a, you know, a new business.

You know, as a gay man, come out many, many times throughout conversations. Personally, I am very much around… I’m me. I’m Andrew. You know, if you are, you know, a member of the straight community, you’re not going to walk into an organization and say your name and say, I’m straight. But a lot of people feel that they have to or will hide it. I’ve never felt like I’ve had to hide who I am within

Esi Hardy (09:11)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (09:30)
Homes for Students that acceptance has been there. And if we can enrich that into all our colleagues, whether it’s through LGBTQ, gender, neurodiversity, invisible disabilities, anything that we can support with and they feel that they can, they feel comfortable about talking about that from day one or very early on within their career, we’re doing the right thing.

Esi Hardy (09:57)
I mean, and I think that goes a long way to kind of express it, to really living that equality, doesn’t it? If every employee feels as though they can be who they feel, who they are in the workplace and not have to hide who they are because of fear of repercussions or assumptions, I think that that’s winning really, isn’t it? That’s winning kind of that equality journey being further beyond.

Andrew (10:26)
So.

Esi Hardy (10:27)
because as a physically disabled person, there’s a lot of that that I haven’t thought about because, you know, I walk into a room or rock up in my wheelchair and people automatically know.

Unless they have a sight impairment but I probably crash into them by that time so they’ll know as well. They automatically know that I am a physically disabled person, but people still make assumptions about my experience and what experience I’m willing to talk about based on the colour of my skin as well. So I don’t in a professional way talk about being a mixed race person and because I don’t have the professional background

and so I wouldn’t feel comfortable in offering value in that way. But it’s quite ⁓ amazingly…

the amount of people that jump to the assumptions that because I’m a black person or a mixed race person I should say, will kind of, Celebrating Disability will not just talk about disability inclusion, but we’ll also talk about race and ethnicity as well. That’s something I struggle with quite often, how not to become defensive when people are asking me that. So it’s quite a, I think a,

a challenge but also a…

⁓ something that’s really good when an organisation for homes with students can kind of draw that line between being yourself and also feeling as though you have to speak up on behalf of a community as well. What would you say, I might be putting you on the spot with this question, sorry, what would you say is the hardest thing about kind of putting that across to people and helping them feel that?

Andrew (12:11)
I think, you know, I speak for myself and I also think I speak for the organization, answering this, that it’s worrying about getting it wrong, you know, and that is because you don’t want to offend anybody. And, as I said to you, know, we haven’t always got it right. And we’ve had some feedback and, you know, some feedback that really hit hard. To go

Esi Hardy (12:21)
Mm. Mm.

Andrew (12:39)
it wasn’t meant to be like that or it didn’t, it shouldn’t have come across like that. But it’s about what you do, it’s how you respond to that feedback and how you embrace that feedback to say, what should we be doing or what should we be saying or reaching out? We’re not the experts. And that’s one thing I really want to get across today. I’m not, I’m an L&D professional that has a passion for diversity

Esi Hardy (12:58)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (13:07)
and inclusion, I’m not qualified. But I feel like Homes for Students have also helped me educate myself. Working with organisations like yourself, Celebrating Disability, has been, you know, yourself, Esi you know, we’ve done lots of different things by you and have different ideas. And just having that guidance sometimes really does help.

Esi Hardy (13:18)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. So I think this really, thank you for saying that. I think that’s really important as well because

One of the things that we really value in Celebrating Disability is that collaborative approach. So collaboration between our trainers in Celebrating Disability who all have different lived experience of disability and lived experience of other diversity areas within ⁓ EDI, but also collaborating with homes for students and the clients we work with. And for me, I think that that is a, you know, that that is the key thing to a successful relationship. And I think that’s how,

we have managed to kind of really support each other through these years by collaborating on what we want to get out of the project and what you want it to look like and how that’s going to happen.

And I think that also creates a place where that fear of getting it wrong is slightly safer, is slightly less fearful because we’re working on it together. And it’s not just a ⁓ unique kind of, it’s not just a situation where you tell us what you want and we give it to you. It’s us working together and maybe pushing back sometimes and saying, if we try it like this, perhaps in our experience, this is work, but you also pushing

back on us and saying well actually this is what we want to get out of it as well which enables I think both sides to say well I’m not quite sure but can we try this out together and what is your experience as well.

Andrew (14:58)
Yeah. And I think as well, you know, when we talk about strategy, know, organizations, we can pull the best strategy together. I think as that year goes on or that six month period or whatever, you’ve got to see what else is going on, especially not just in the UK, but also around the world. And I think, you know, over the last four and a half years that we’ve been heavily focused on Together Is Better. There’s been lots of change and a lot of

Esi Hardy (15:16)
Mm.

Andrew (15:27)
world or UK events that have changed how we look at things. And you know what, think it’s really important to stay current. I know a lot of people use the word trends. I’m not a massive fan of a trend as such, but when there is world events or UK events trending out there, you’ve got to be receptive of them and understand how that impacts not just our colleagues and our team members, but

Esi Hardy (15:32)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (15:55)
how that impacts on our students, our residents within our properties. We have a vast variety of students, international, domestic, and they’ve all got individual needs. And it’s about how can we train our general managers and our property teams to really help and support those residents.

Esi Hardy (15:58)
Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Andrew (16:18)
but

But also embrace that connection with the university as well.

Esi Hardy (16:21)
And I think that’s really important. Again, you know, part of what we were going to talk about today was psychological safety. And I think that’s really important for developing and building on that psychological safety, because students, if we just talk about students for a moment, students, hopefully, through feeling the culture of homes and students when living in your residences, will understand that you have kind of that wider knowledge of what’s going on. And therefore are mindful of kind

of

how they fit into that and what their experiences and their feelings of safety are as well.

Andrew (16:59)
Yeah, and I think that with a lot of the training that we’ve done and a lot of our, you know, we’ll talk as, as this podcast goes on around tip times, but it’s about, you know, using some of those voices to come and talk to our colleagues and not just about how they support that wide team member. It’s how they support those, how they can support those residents within our properties. We have to educate them to them, let them help our residents, especially in, you know,

Esi Hardy (17:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew (17:28)
our large international based properties and cities that we have a wide range of international residents. They all come with different needs, they all come with different backgrounds and it’s letting them know, know, part of our mission is to be a home away from home for students. What does home look like for them?

for an international student, not a domestic student.

Esi Hardy (17:55)
So how do you answer that question? Is it that you serve these students? Is it that part of your TIB time?

Andrew (18:02)
So, you know, we undertake a number of different surveys, which a lot of PBSA and students facing sector support with, whether that’s our Investors and Students or our Global Student Living Index. And again, that really helps us understand around what do they feel when they check in versus…

Esi Hardy (18:22)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (18:23)
when, you know, when the, the three months or the six months and those different times of year of those surveys really can give a really good understanding of the impact of what it’s like to live within our properties.

Esi Hardy (18:38)
And the surveys benchmarked against other surveys from other providers in your sector as well.

Andrew (18:46)
Yeah, so it’s based on ⁓ and again, you know, it’s really good for us to get that NPS, you know, that net promotional score to really understand that gives us a good basis. Before then we start, you know, delving into all the finer detail, you know, understand that NPS and thankfully, you know, we’ve seen an increase in our student NPS ⁓ over a number of years as we continue to grow.

our involvement within the sector as such.

Esi Hardy (19:16)
Brilliant, excellent. So just to reiterate what you’re saying, by monitoring students from the very beginning when they enter your property to maybe three and six months on, and so maybe the end of the time when they’re leaving, you are able to increase their enjoyment and their fulfillment of staying in your property by learning what is and what isn’t working.

Andrew (19:25)
Thank

Yeah, and that learning piece goes into the events that our property teams put on for our students and really ensure that they’re the right type of events and celebrating and getting them involved in them as well.

Esi Hardy (19:55)
Excellent, brilliant. Can you, let’s talk a bit about TIB time. Can you tell us a bit more about TIB time and how that also impacts into how students are supported, but also how employees are supported and how they’re supported to have a voice in the workplace as well.

Andrew (20:10)
Yeah, so, you know, great to have you. I think you supported two now of our TIB times. TIB time stands for Together is Better Time. And it’s a time where we can bring all our colleagues together. You know, we have a vast amount of geography to cover, but we can bring them all together virtually for one hour just to listen and to also be educated, but also to ask questions.

Esi Hardy (20:32)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (20:38)
but if they want to as well, to share lived experiences. We’ve used a number of different providers, Celebrating Disability being one of them. We’ve used State of Mind around mental health. We’ve had support around menopause. We’ve done work with another partner of ours, Inclusive Employers, around race and about understanding the impact of black history. And that not just being in a month, but also being

Esi Hardy (20:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Andrew (21:06)
you know, over and over amount of time that we’re not just again, we’re not tick-box and go, oh, it’s Black History Month. So we’re going to do something on that or it’s mental health month. We’re going to, yes, we may use those periods to, to, you know, really promote them. But how do we talk about that throughout the year?

Esi Hardy (21:24)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (21:26)
As we move into 2026, what we’re trying to do this year is really ask our colleagues to be involved and come and talk about their lived experiences through TIB time and share their own personal stories of whatever that may be, whether that’s race, whether that’s religion, whether that’s sexuality, whether that’s menopause, there’s lots that goes into diversity,

equity, inclusion. And I think the main thing for me around TIB time is forget about all those, it’s about the big, it’s about our colleagues feeling like they belong and that belonging piece is really important to me as we as we continue throughout 2026.

Esi Hardy (22:05)
Mm.

Brilliant. I mean, I know you’re just starting that at the moment, but do you see this being successful? Is there quite a lot of an uptake on that?

Andrew (22:21)
Yeah, we’ve had a real impact. So we’re now in February and we’ve got four colleagues supporting us with both Chinese New Year and understanding why Chinese New Year is important versus Lunar New Year and understanding the differences to a Chinese colleague, why that’s important. But they can also help us.

with our huge amount of Chinese residents, you know, and really make sure they feel belonging during that. Ramadan also falls in February. So we’ve got two colleagues who have wrote about why Ramadan is important. We’re in the process of looking at how can we implement prayer rooms within our central services offices and also in our wider property base. Now, you know, we’re

Esi Hardy (22:49)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Andrew (23:13)
not saying that we can build these in every single property, but it’s about understanding what do we need. ⁓ In that we don’t know, but our colleagues who celebrate Ramadan, they’re giving us that information.

Esi Hardy (23:18)
Yeah.

Andrew (23:32)
It’s so powerful because it’s coming from our colleagues.

Esi Hardy (23:35)
And I’m guessing that goes beyond TIB time. So TIB time is one place for people to explain this and talk about this. But I’m guessing it goes on throughout the years. You’re saying, you know, it’s not just, ⁓ it’s February, so it’s Ramadan, but then we’ll forget about that in March kind of thing. And, you know, I’m guessing this is a double edged, not sword, because that’s a bad thing, but a double edged rainbow, I suppose. Because whilst it’s supporting that sense of belonging in the workplace, it’s also supporting

your employee retention as well because employees can really feel as though they are in a workplace where they are heard, where they’re valued and where they do feel supported and belong.

Andrew (24:16)
Yeah, you know, it’s great that you brought that up because that’s something very fresh that we’ve just done again, working with our communications team and our wider people function. We’ve just analyzed data from our recent engagement survey around it was it was our diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging survey to really understand what it is that our colleagues want, but also to understand the response rate. And for the people who didn’t respond,

Esi Hardy (24:42)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (24:45)
understand why, did they not feel comfortable to respond? We spent a full day, two weeks ago, analyzing, you know, we had something like, I think we’ve got a hundred slides presentation to take our communications and our people and culture director through to really understand what it is that we needed to do. We then use all that feedback to build our strategy for this year. And we went into that very much. We need to this, this, this, this, all of that.

Esi Hardy (24:49)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (25:15)
And actually we’d have to go, okay, what’s important? What are our colleagues really telling us they need to see this year? And one of them was focusing on religious events. So not just Ramadan or Eid, you know, understanding what our colleagues celebrate from a religious perspective, but also the importance of Christmas and Easter,

not just being giving chocolate eggs out to Easter and doing out there calling it Christmas, but you know understanding the importance of the true meaning of Easter and the true meaning of Christmas ⁓ and really understanding all those those religious events, the true meaning of what it means to our colleagues who celebrate them. But how, again everything that we do from a colleague perspective, how can we then brief that out to support our students.

Esi Hardy (25:49)
Yep.

Yep.

Mm-hmm. And you know, this is kind of, I mean, this is brilliant. This really circles back as well. I want to touch on a couple of things you said there. Firstly, this really circles back as well.

when you were talking about kind of it’s okay not to have all the answers. And that’s something that you’ve learned throughout the years because I think that this is such a fear in so many organizations about, we should know this answer already so we’re not gonna ask the question. That they’d never be as brave as Homes for Students are being and asking those questions in the survey. And it comes from that kind of…

not relaxed state, this kind of…

confidence in it’s okay for us not to know, but we are going to find out and we’re going to find out in a way that people know that it’s, that it’s meaningful and it’s of value to them as well as us. I think that’s brilliant. In the last episode or one of the last episodes that we recorded with Max Horton from Smith and Nephew, he was talking about kind of the balance of asking the right question in order to not only

help people feel safe to answer, but actually being able to know what answers they should be providing. Not like say, yes, here kind of thing. But an example is he was talking about kind of disability monitoring data. So if you say to somebody, do you find yourself as a disabled person? They might say no, if they don’t self identify. But if you ask the question in a slightly different way, talking about kind of under the Equality Act, this is the definition.

do you fall under this definition, then you can get a clearer answer because the person is able to answer that question rather than the one that’s being assumed. So how do you ensure that people feel confident to answer questions?

Andrew (27:58)
So on the backend of 2025, we launched an inclusion passport that really helped. So it was on the back of a data monitoring survey that we’ve in the backend of summer, where people then could identify and say, yes, they have a disability. And then on the back of the inclusion passport, that was given permission for them to then, was to share that with their line managers.

Esi Hardy (28:17)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (28:27)
So then training their line managers on how to have those inclusive conversations around, you know, is it an invisible disability? Are they happy to talk about it? You know, what does support look like for them? Because support is not a one-size-fits-all. But that inclusion passport has also helped us collate all that data and whether they move to another…

Esi Hardy (28:43)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (28:54)
department within our central services function or to another property within our operations function or they get a new line manager or that data is held. So then that gives that information to that line manager to then go and have that conversation and say as a new line manager what is it you need from me? So it’s keeping that conversation going and it’s keeping it fresh all the time and allowing our colleagues to go that’s no longer working for me we need to have a different conversation.

Esi Hardy (29:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I love the idea of inclusion passports and workplace passports. I think done properly, they can work really well and they can really kind of spread that word that inclusion is important. So we’ve been talking about it in terms of disability for the past few minutes, but is that inclusion passport, do you think it would work for people with other identities as well?

Andrew (29:44)
Yeah, definitely. We spoke very much around disabilities there, but again, around this wider together, better strategies that we don’t just cover disability, but we’re covering race, religion, gender. It’s very easy to go, we need to do everything here and now. But it’s about understanding what’s important and through the surveys, the data we’ve had from our colleagues to go.

Esi Hardy (30:02)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (30:10)
This is what’s important to our colleagues. This is what they’re asking for. So that’s a priority. There’s things that we want to do, but most probably we won’t get to this year. But it’s still there very much at the forefront. It’s understanding what’s important in the here and now.

Esi Hardy (30:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. I know you’ve said here and now I’m going to take you wider. So in blue sky thinking, Andrew, if the world was your oyster and you could almost like Dorothy, put your heels together and end up in 2040 Home for Students. So from an inclusion perspective, what would it look like in 2040?

Andrew (30:53)
Wow, that’s a good question, Esi. You’ve got me there. I think, you know, last year, Humphrey students celebrated their 10th anniversary and listening, you know, I was privileged enough to go to our leadership summit and listen to our group CEO, who were the founder of the business, to hear that the journey to 10 was so impactful.

Esi Hardy (30:56)
I like to add the good ones. Next one we’re going to talk about Robbie.

Andrew (31:20)
And that was, you know, shared far and wide, far and wide, sorry. And as we continue moving into the different territories within Europe with our European brand of Bola, our built to rent and co-living sector of Verve Life, as they continue to grow, you know, what will, what will Hobson students look like in 2040? That blue sky thing, I would really love to envisage that, you know,

Esi Hardy (31:20)
Mm.

Andrew (31:49)
There is, there is a wide dedicated team of really focusing on, you know, DE&I but still having that core value of it’s what our teams need and evolving, you know, every year we evolve Together Is Better. Last year at the start of the year, we rested it because we needed to get data. We needed to understand.

Esi Hardy (32:01)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (32:15)
All the great successes that we’ve done and you spoke before about some awards that we’ve won and we’ve won many. It’s not about awards for Homes for Students. It’s about doing the right thing. Resting Together Is Better and then coming back with a bit of a rebrand, as you know, we updated the logo, we refreshed it. Because for those colleagues who have been around since 2021, from its launch, it may have fell off their radar and it’s keeping it fresh and keeping it energized.

Esi Hardy (32:41)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (32:45)
and understanding

where those trends are.

Esi Hardy (32:49)
Brilliant, I love that. So you could have, if we’re thinking about kind of a dedicated, I say we, if Homes for Students are thinking about kind of a dedicated DEI team, you could have pockets of DEI

champions in that team in different departments so that it never becomes that kind of DI sits over here that is still kind of organization wide. But I think it sounds like you started in the right place by gathering that data, understanding what’s important, and then working to implement that. So because it’s already embedded in that DNA of Homes for Students, I don’t see that changing in any way as well. So that’s brilliant. Excellent. I’ll be excited. I’m going to play this recording.

Andrew (33:07)
film.

Esi Hardy (33:33)
back in 2040 you can you can say yep yep I’ve done all of that that’s brilliant, excellent.

Andrew (33:39)
Well, at least in 2040, I won’t have lost any more hair. So we’re all good there.

Esi Hardy (33:44)
I will have gone completely gray. think today it’s covered up really well, so you can’t see any gray, but it’s really scary. mean my, you know, just going off topic for a second, my hairdresser said to me the other day, yep, we’ve got all the gray’s out. I see. was like, how dare you? I didn’t even ask you a question. but anyway, so we all, you know, with that in mind, losing hair and stuff, we were also kind of in, in talking about kind of what we were going to

talk about today. Talking a little bit about kind of the subjects around privilege and identity and self-reflection. And I know I was saying from a personal perspective, I feel that there’s a…

that there’s a privilege within my oppression that I face. So I am a physically disabled person, but I feel privileged in a lot of ways because I can self advocate for myself. I feel really empowered to because I understand my rights and I know how to project my rights when I need to. But, you know, there’s an oppression around that as well because I have to do that in the first place. And we were talking about it kind of from our own perspectives as well. Would you be comfortable sharing some of that?

Andrew (34:53)
Yeah, you know, I’m a white male. So I feel very privileged. I feel like I’ve had a very privileged upbringing.

But then, you know, as I said earlier on, I am not very, very good at outing as a member of the LGBTQ plus community. I’m just me. But yes, I have had times where you feel like, yes, you know, I’ve come up a number of times. You can sit in a taxi, you know, on the way home and the taxi driver will go to you. Are you going home to your girlfriend? And you’re like…

Esi Hardy (35:28)
Yeah.

Andrew (35:28)
No,

are you single? You know, and it’s, it’s easy just to say sometimes, you know, I am single, but it is easy just to say some, yeah, you know, I’m single. Because it’s, it’s, oh, do I feel safe to have that conversation with a perfect stranger? So as much as you know, I look at myself very much privileged, I think as well talking to colleagues from all different race, religions, backgrounds, again.

Esi Hardy (35:44)
Mm.

Andrew (35:58)
that actually how privileged I have been, you know, as a white male. And it’s okay to talk about that and say, yes, I am privileged. Because when you hear stories from, you know, lived experience of others, you go, yeah, I’m lucky. You know, I haven’t had to question my skin colour, for example, or I haven’t had to, you know,

I always remember a colleague talking about people touching a hair.

because, you know, she had an afro. And that’s something that stuck with me for many years. How dare someone have, you know, do that to somebody? It’s because… would anyone just come over to me and touch my head because I’m a bald guy? No. You know, I’ll hope they wouldn’t. But people think that’s okay to do. You know, and how that can affect, you know, individuals and, you know…

Esi Hardy (36:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Andrew (36:58)
That is a story that’s stuck with me for many years. I think that does link in very much into privilege. I hope I’ve answered that question enough for you there.

Esi Hardy (37:05)
⁓ Absolutely.

I think…

Absolutely, but you

know, it struck me. So I’ve experienced that as well, people coming up to pat me on the head, touch my hair, or your hair’s so soft. And I was like, well, now it’s really knotty, thanks to you. And now I have to wash it because of your greasy, horrible hands. And as you say, would you walk up to somebody else and just touch their hair if they just had blonde hair or bald head or whatever? Probably not. So what makes you think? For me as well,

coming up to my wheelchair and just trying to push me out the way and they realize very quickly that they can’t because it’s an electric wheelchair but you know would you walk up behind a woman and just push her to where you want that person to be? No you wouldn’t and but I if you don’t mind and we don’t have to talk about this I’d like to kind of just circle back to your experience of being in taxis and being and there’s assumptions being made about you going home to your girlfriend

I mean, apart from, you know, as you say, you can choose to, sorry, come out depending on how psychologically safe you feel in that moment. But that must have, and I’m making an assumption, so correct me if I’m wrong, it must have an impact on how you feel in that moment as well.

Andrew (38:26)
Yeah, and especially, know.

Years ago when I was younger, most probably affected me more because I would say, yes I am. And then it was like, I’m creating a lie as such. I think as well, a lot of my friends talk to me about, for example last year I was ⁓ going to Egypt on holiday with a friend and a few people I surprised you going to Egypt.

Esi Hardy (38:35)
Mm.

Andrew (38:49)
And I was like, yeah, I’m aware of the stance on LGBTQ +, but I’m not big on PDA, on the public’s display of affection as such. I was going with a friend who was straight and I was like, yes, I will still go. But I understand as well that there’s some same sex couples just go, no, I wouldn’t feel safe.

Esi Hardy (39:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andrew (39:16)
And that, you know, going back to that privilege piece, you know, just to have that really in the back of your mind, it’s quite hard where you can’t just go online or go to a travel agency and say, yeah, I want to go there. You’ve got to do research on a place before for safety reasons, not just, ⁓ how far is it away from the beach?

Esi Hardy (39:30)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. And do you feel that, and if we get too personal, please, please tell me and I’ll stop. But do you feel as though you have to hide a part of who you are when you go to those kinds of countries if you choose to travel there?

Andrew (39:50)
Yes, and unfortunately we didn’t get to Egypt for many different reasons. We had to cancel last minute. But me and my friend were laughing and I was like, no jokes, you know, when we’re out in public. And it was, I find it as banter, don’t get me wrong. And you know, that friend certainly wouldn’t do anything offensive. But it was, I felt very much aware that it would be if it had just gone into mainland Europe as such.

Esi Hardy (40:06)
Mm.

Yeah.

Andrew (40:19)
And I think, you know, with what we’ve, where, especially the country and, you know, lot of hate crime going on at the moment, feeling safe is most probably now very much on the top of my agenda. Don’t know if that’s just because I’m getting older, you know, and I’m a bit more aware of it now, but yeah.

I, yeah, it’s more of that safety feel now because people, and again, I wouldn’t say it’s not just face to face, it’s that online, you know, that tons of it, you see it all the time and,

Esi Hardy (40:51)
I’m sorry.

Andrew (40:55)
You know, I see people posting things on social media channels and just go, what gives you the right to put that?

Esi Hardy (41:02)
I remember when I can’t remember her name there was a ⁓ CBBC presenter who was an amputee, well she still is an amputee, and she was I think it was like something like story time. Funny enough I didn’t watch it because I’m not five and I don’t have a five-year-old. But loads of parents were calling in to ⁓ ask her to be removed from the TV program because they were it was

in quotes ‘scaring their young people’ or ‘scaring their children’, sorry.

Andrew (41:34)
It’s just things like that still blow my mind. And I just think, why? Why have people got so much time on their hands to do that? To do that. it’s just…

Esi Hardy (41:43)
Yeah, that’s literally what I think. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew (41:49)
You know, going back to 2040’s, you said, you know, before about that vision. I hope before then that people are just allowed to live how they want to live. You know, I’m not upsetting you. So why does it matter if I’m walking down, you know, down the street in, you know, a mixed race relationship or in a same sex relationship? Why does that matter to you?

Esi Hardy (42:04)
Yeah.

Yeah, why do you have to have an opinion on everything? There’s a similar thing with non-disabled and…

disabled person in a relationship together as well that people have such an opinion on that as well, but as you say, you know, why does it matter? Why do you have to an opinion? Why are you wasting your breath when nobody needs to hear it? Nobody wants to hear it and actually but you know, I think I didn’t know about you but I think these kind maybe it’s because I’m in an echo chamber and I always question myself about this but I think these opinions and voices are becoming the minority rather

than the majority. But again I don’t know if it’s because I am in an echo chamber.

Andrew (42:58)
Yeah, I would love to, you know, say yeah, but I think social media hasn’t helped. It’s brought us to the forefront because people feel that they can hide behind anonymous members of groups, hide the faces and just be those keyboard warriors. Would you say that out in public? You know, if you can hide behind a keyboard, well…

Esi Hardy (43:06)
Mm.

Andrew (43:24)
then why are you even saying it? It’s people who…

Esi Hardy (43:26)
Yeah, yeah, you know it’s wrong if you’re just doing it behind the keyboard.

Andrew (43:32)
maybe have been exposed to a lot more of those attacks, wherever it is, you know, again, race, religion, sexuality, whatever that may be. How do they pick themselves up from that? And how do they then go out and, you know, walk down the street the next day? Again, from a privileged perspective, you know, I feel very privileged not to have experienced that, thankfully.

Esi Hardy (43:43)
Mm.

Well, I’m glad to hear that. Have you come across, um, weathering?

Andrew (44:01)
Explain a bit more if you don’t mind.

Esi Hardy (44:02)
as

a concept. apparently, it’s very scientific. It’s how the water splashes against the rocks and then weathers the stone off the rocks over time. But in terms of privilege and oppressions, it is the idea that the first time we hear something, we’re quite resilient to it. So something oppressive towards us. But over time, it weathers

our ability to be resilient and it weathers away at you know our self-worth and our self-value as well.

Andrew (44:39)
Yeah, you know, and I could imagine, I can’t speak from personal opinion, but I can imagine for some people, yeah, that very much is, you know, is at the forefront because yeah, you can brush it off once or twice, but when you’re constantly hearing it or you’re constantly getting battered with it, you go, well, do I stop believing it myself?

Esi Hardy (44:53)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. I think that’s where kind of isolation comes from. And then that leads to a lack of representation, because people who are facing that oppression and facing that lack of resilience, because this has happened so many times, as you say, go a different route, avoid certain places or become isolated. So then the

‘problem’ in quotes, seems to go away because, you know, the oppression isn’t happening anymore, but it’s just happening behind closed doors.

Andrew (45:37)
Or equally they become to accept it, which no one should have to accept any of their repressions, but they just go, well, okay, but then what is the long-term impact that has on their mental health and their own personal wellbeing? That will have a huge impact when they go, well, it’s just a known, I’m used to it. Nobody should have to get used to that.

Esi Hardy (45:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Absolutely, 100 % agree. Couldn’t agree more.

So we’re just going to switch gears and talk again about kind of the internal workings and the culture and the values of Homes for Students and talk specifically about neurodiversity and how neurodiversity is a wider part of the inclusion strategy. So I know alongside Celebrating Disability delivering inclusion training for disabled people in general in Homes for Students, specifically in recruitment and business as usual,

we’ve also supported you with inclusion training for neurodivergent students who live in your residences. So can you talk about how and why, first of all, actually talk about why this strategy is really important to homes for students.

Andrew (46:51)
We have a number of colleagues, you know, who identify as having neurodivergence. That is, that can be different for everyone. And it’s about empowering our managers to understand how to support. Now, all the training in the world and the training that we’ve received from yourselves has been amazing, but it’s about understanding again, what those individuals need. It’s not a one size fits all. And that’s what we do, you know, with the whole

Esi Hardy (47:06)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (47:18)
diversity strategy not a one size fits all. I think when it comes to neurodiversity it’s that key in understanding what the need is but also what we’ve done at the back end of last year we had a group of colleagues on the internal progression program look at how we understand neurodiversity from a student perspective and our residents and they successfully delivered a trial on check-in, so,

you know, you can imagine as a first year student leaving home potentially for the first time, potentially going to a new country or even just a new city. And that day one of I’m leaving home, I’ve got excitement, I’m going to university, but I don’t know anyone. And we’ve also got, I’m really nervous about going to a new course, finding campus on day one, lots of things going on in

Esi Hardy (47:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Andrew (48:16)
the mind, that is stressful enough for a neurotypical student. What’s that impact on when they walk into one of our properties and there’s lots going on. Lots of noise, lots of people, potentially a DJ for a freshers club, all of that going on, which is amazing with all the giveaways and all the free merch the students love. But that can be overwhelming for someone who’s neurotypical, let alone someone who’s neurodivergent. So.

Esi Hardy (48:20)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew (48:44)
What we introduced to the trial last year was ear defenders, quiet check-ins, fidget toys whilst they’re waiting, videos beforehand for them to watch on how to use the cooker, how to use the washing facilities. So they had an understanding of that before they got there. So that sense of overwhelming wasn’t as much.

We’re really pleased to say that trial was really successful and it was nine of our internal progression candidates on our new university program which is our internal progression program. They delivered that to our executive team and members of our executive team have now signed that off and we’re going to roll that out this year and company-wide so that will will go to every single property but again we need to make sure that we’re training our colleagues in

Esi Hardy (49:17)
Okay.

Andrew (49:40)
what that looks like and how to implement that within the properties because we have properties ranging from 70 rooms up to 1400 rooms. So what that quiet check-in looks like for a 70 bed property versus a 1400 bed property is different. So yeah, that’s been a huge impact, but getting some of our colleagues also involved in that trial who aren’t neurodivergent.

Esi Hardy (49:48)
Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah, enough.

Andrew (50:08)
to go. Again, like we have with all the other things is getting them to tell us what it is that they need, what have they got that lived experience. And we’re focusing towards the back end of the year. One of our monthly events is around invisible disabilities. That neurodiversity piece will also come into it. I’ve got two colleagues at the moment trialing the eLearning program that we’ve done with yourself in partnership. They’re going through it.

Esi Hardy (50:24)
Okay.

Andrew (50:36)
to go, does it work for them? Are the colours right? Is the language right? As much as we use the expertise from you and the psychologist that you put us in touch with as well. That’s great, but does it work for those colleagues who are going through that e-learning programme?

Esi Hardy (50:41)
Mm-hmm.

in reality.

Absolutely, 100%. I love that you’re doing that. think that, yeah, we can deliver all the training in the world. And it’s very counter intuitive for me to say this as a trainer, but training is only training. How it lands in reality and how it works in reality for first of all, the people

going through the training and then the people receiving support at the end of the training can sometimes be quite different. And we as L&D experts and specialists, we work really hard to be mindful of all of that. But I think it’s so important to kind of get the reality of the situation from people living it and having lived experience. So I love that. I can’t wait to hear what the results are. So we are coming to the end of our episode today, Andrew, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation.

Andrew (51:32)
Definitely.

Esi Hardy (51:41)
And we’re going to turn to the section where we talk about kind of advice you would leave for others. So if people have not picked up on the tremendous amounts of advice you’ve given already, our audience are a mix of EDI, as in equality, diversity and inclusion, and learning development leaders, and also disabled people themselves.

People listening to this, there’s been so much information that’s been shared. They might be thinking, my gosh, I didn’t know where to start. I feel a bit overwhelmed. We’re at the beginning of our inclusion journey. Where would you say is a really good starting point?

Andrew (52:15)
Understand your demographic of your workforce or your customer base, whatever that may be. And starting off small, I think, you know, We definitely wanted to change the world in a day and we had to then really streamline back and go, okay, what can we do? What do we have the capacity to do? What’s important for us to do? And I think, you know, They are all those key elements in putting that strategy together.

Esi Hardy (52:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Andrew (52:43)
You can’t do it on your own. It’s engaging with whether it’s that customer base, you know, that colleague base and asking people who want to support. You can’t force people to get involved. It’s about people who want to get involved and are passionate about it. Create a common language where it’s okay to get it wrong. You know, and I think people may go, Ooh.

Where’s he going with that one there? But it’s learning from them. Don’t make the same mistake twice because you haven’t learned from that mistake the first time you’ve done it. If you’re doing it again and again, but when you do get it wrong, finding out how you can fix it and using the professionals, you know, ⁓ we part of the inclusive employers and we part of the USC and Celebrating Disability.

It’s asking questions and going, it’s okay not to know all the answers, but who can I reach out to to help me find that answer or find that solution?

Esi Hardy (53:50)
Brilliant, excellent.

So thank you very much, Andrew. So is there anything else you would like people to know?

Andrew (53:57)
Yeah, I think, you know, whether you call it EDI, D and I, D E, whatever it is, whatever you’re going with is to take every day of the learning opportunity and education, education, education. You know, I can’t say that enough. It’s about educating yourself, but also education that wider colleague base as well.

Esi Hardy (54:20)
Brilliant. So it goes without saying, me being the top one, but who are your influencers, Andrew?

Andrew (54:28)
Yeah. And you know, not just saying it, you have had an impact on, on our journey. And, you know, I remember when we first met with you Esi, you know, myself and Steph were on a team’s call with you and we both sent each other a WhatsApp going, we found the one because you connected with us. You understood us as individuals, but also where we wanted to go to other business. And you know, I think that that’s key.

Esi Hardy (54:52)
Thank you. ⁓

Andrew (54:53)
I wouldn’t say there’s a lot of people who influence because I have a wide variety of a network. One of my colleagues who was working on the Ramadan campaign had had a massive influence on me over the last six months because she shared her story with me. I think I wouldn’t say that there’s many influences

out in the wider business who I can consistently say have really helped me, but it’s my colleagues who have come and shared their lived experiences or wanted to get involved and wanted to get involved for the right reasons. But, Homes for Students as an organisation are allowing us to do what we do.

Esi Hardy (55:33)
I think that.

Yeah.

I think that’s great. So a lot of the time when I ask that question, not that anybody’s answer is a bad answer. It’s about the wider kind of DEI community. But what I loved hearing from you was that it’s the people around you every day that are influencing your own journey, your own learning, that you’re really invested in what people’s experiences are and how they share those experiences. So thank you so much for sharing that.

So lastly, I just want to say thank you so much, Andrew. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. And I’ve got a lot of insight I didn’t have before. And yeah, thank you very much for joining us today. ⁓

Andrew (56:21)
It’s been amazing, thank

you for the invitation to join. It’s been really good.

Esi Hardy (56:26)
Of course, of course. So thank you so much for tuning in and listening on however you listened and we will see you in another three weeks for the next episode of the Equality Edit. Bye everyone.