Belonging Isn’t A Buzzword, It’s A Power Shift

Esi Hardy (00:11)
Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Equality Edit where we unpack equality one story at a time. Today I’m really excited that I’m joined by a colleague that I’ve known for a few years now, Max Horton, and he’s going to talk a little bit about his experiences personally and professionally in the business that he works in. So hi Max, thank you very much for joining me today.

Max Horton (00:35)
Hi Esi, Thank you very much for having me.

Esi Hardy (00:37)
I’d love to start just by hearing a little bit about you. Can you tell us about yourself, what you do and anything else you want us to know?

Max Horton (00:44)
Absolutely. So I’m Max Horton. I’m the global head of inclusion belonging at Smith and Nephew.

So Smith and nephew are a global medical device company. So we ⁓ manufacture innovative medical devices that take the limits of living for hundreds of thousands of patients across the world.

Esi Hardy (01:03)
Brilliant, excellent, excellent. So tell us a little bit about yourself, Max.

Max Horton (01:08)
So I was born and raised in Hull, just like ⁓ Smith and Nephew, and I live just outside of Hull with my partner Joe and our two dogs, Scooby and Peggy, who you may see running around behind me if you’re lucky.

Esi Hardy (01:21)
I love those names, Scooby and Peggy. Where did they come from?

Max Horton (01:25)
Scooby and Peggy, well Scooby came to us with the name Scooby. He also came to us, I’m very on brand because Scooby actually is disabled himself. Scooby has three legs which is how we got him. Not sure how he lost his leg he manages just fine and he’s about 10 years old now. And Peggy was

Esi Hardy (01:36)
Okay.

Max Horton (01:50)
I can say named after Peggy Mitchell from EastEnders.

Esi Hardy (01:53)
I love that. love that. can imagine her standing at the top of the staircase, shouting, Phil, Phil, or at least barking at that excellence. We always had rescue dogs growing up and my mum loved to name them. But one of our dogs, we got to put names in the hat and I was able to name the dog. So it was named Basil. And I’ve always.

Max Horton (02:00)
Hahaha

Esi Hardy (02:17)
I don’t really want any pets because I’m not very good at looking after myself, let alone looking after something else alive. I can’t even keep a plant alive, but I would like a pet just so that I can call it Robbie. I mean, obviously after Robbie Williams, but I don’t think that’s fair on the pet to get it just so can name it Robbie Williams.

Max Horton (02:30)
I don’t know.

Me and Robbie Williams share a birthday, interestingly enough, there you go, a fun fact for the listeners there. Yes, 13th of February.

Esi Hardy (02:37)
Are you serious?

Wow, see I always knew I liked you but now you’ve just gone up in my priority list. So yeah, that’s amazing. I love that. That is a cool fact. I share my birthday with Eminem.

Max Horton (02:44)
If only I looked like Robert.

brilliant. Excellent. Love that.

Esi Hardy (02:53)
Yeah, yeah, so that’s quite cool as well. So anyway,

today, obviously, I’d love to talk about Robbie and Eminem for the whole session, but that’s a different kind of podcast. I think it might start that podcast, be fair. But for now, I suppose we’re just talking about equality, which I suppose is okay. So I’d love to hear how you got into equality and why you have such a passion for this subject.

Max Horton (03:19)
Yeah, so I think really my passion for inclusion belonging really grew from my own lived experience. So when I was 16, I was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease. And over the years, I’ve experienced a lot of different treatments and procedures, some of them incredibly aggressive and invasive, had multiple operations. Unfortunately, some of them were emergency to really save my life.

So I think that diagnosis and the kind of many and varied challenges that I’ve had over the years really was what motivated me to drive awareness of firstly, inflammatory bowel disease and really kind of challenge the stigma and the misconceptions that unfortunately still.

Esi Hardy (03:54)
Mm.

Max Horton (04:00)
exists today, it can be incredibly isolating, you know, living with a chronic illness. And in the past, I’ve certainly experienced stigma, misconceptions, ableism, even, you know, outright discrimination. I think of one kind of notable example, I just had surgeries, was at a previous employer, I just had surgery on my stomach, and I was wearing some looser fitting clothes.

And I was told I had to change into business attire because it wasn’t, it wasn’t appropriate for the office. And I said, you know, I’ve had surgery, but it doesn’t matter. This is a place of business. So, you know, it was experiences like that really, think to that, that kind of sparked my passion. You know, so was on a mission to change all that. I really do strongly believe in a future where accessibility isn’t an afterthought.

Esi Hardy (04:37)
Yeah.

Max Horton (04:50)
you know, a society where disabled people, people with chronic illnesses can really experience true equity and are judged on their skills and abilities, not kind of that misconception ⁓ or that stigma. Really kind of what I try to say is my illness isn’t who I am. It doesn’t define me. I have a lot more to offer than just my diagnosis.

Esi Hardy (05:09)
Hmm.

Max Horton (05:15)
So really I wanted to use my platform to not only educate people on the challenges of living with disability, to kind of challenge those perceptions and really promote the vast wealth of talent and experience that disabled people can bring to a business.

Esi Hardy (05:33)
So, I mean, there’s so many things that you said there that I want to touch upon. when you were talking about kind of the loose clothing you were wearing for very kind of good reasons, and that your workplace pushed back on that and said it’s not professional, essentially not to be in business attire. I mean, how did that make you feel about how you belonged in that workplace?

Max Horton (05:53)
⁓ I mean, I can probably sum it up by saying I didn’t belong in that workplace. I felt like I didn’t belong. I felt like a nuisance. I was kind of ashamed. was ashamed of being singled out like that. Anybody who knew me knew why this was the case. And even though I explained, you know, I’m doing this because I’ve got a very sensitive scar.

you know, it’s kind of my needs were disregarded in favor of business attire that really who’s going to see but my colleagues who don’t care. So it was just so unnecessary. You know, that was what kind of struck me the most. I think it was just because it was so unnecessary. It wasn’t a customer facing role. You know, so again, it kind of really felt, it really made me feel singled out and ashamed and

Esi Hardy (06:22)
Exactly.

Mmm. Mmm.

⁓

Max Horton (06:39)
and like a burden really.

Esi Hardy (06:41)
It’s, mean, I completely kind of resonate with what you’re saying. And it’s so inappropriate, it’s so unnecessary to even mention it in the first place, isn’t it? So if somebody comes in in slightly different attire than they usually come in, the first thought doesn’t have to be, God, they’re doing it deliberately to be a rebel or they’re not doing what I’ve asked them to do. It’s, I wonder what else is going on. You know, they must be doing it for a good reason. And that is all I need to think about really.

And the fact that, as you say, you were singled out for it, they kind of highlighted that in a way that you probably didn’t want it to be highlighted. You came in to get on with your job in the way that was most comfortable for you. And all of a sudden, the subject was around what you were wearing, which sounds like forced you to disclose what had been going on for you.

And the irony of that is that a workplace such as that who thinks that professionalism is all based around kind of the perception of what you look like means that you can’t actually get on to do your job because all you’re worrying about is being uncomfortable both physically and emotionally.

Max Horton (07:53)
Exactly. And it impacted my job performance. You know, I was in pain, you know, ultimately, and clearly my pain was less important to that particular business than the way that I was dressed.

Esi Hardy (07:56)
Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, which is, yeah, I’m assuming that that’s not the company you’re working at at the moment. That’s not Smith & Nephew. Yeah.

Max Horton (08:14)
Absolutely not, not. No,

Smith and Nephew was a very, very different culture.

Esi Hardy (08:18)
Yeah. And so the learning from that company, the annoying thing is that company probably won’t learn that lesson because they’ll never listen to a podcast like this and they never think that they’ve done anything that isn’t appropriate. But hopefully the other companies that you work with, and Smith and Nephew, obviously, the learning from you is that you know when you feel that belonging in an organization, you know when you feel welcomed and valued.

And I think sometimes potentially that’s the lesson that we can take for ourselves that we can learn when we fit in and when we feel valued in a place for the pure fact of how they’re treating us.

Max Horton (08:43)
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Definitely. And that’s when people bring their best selves to work, when they feel included, when they feel a sense of belonging, when they feel valued for who they are, regardless of what their identity is. And you know, really, that’s what kind of my job is all about, making sure that people do feel that sense of belonging, people do feel included, but more than that.

Esi Hardy (09:00)
Mm.

Max Horton (09:15)
kind of eliminating those barriers that prevent people from feeling included, feeling as though they belong. Really that’s kind of what my job is all about but that’s why it’s my dream job.

Esi Hardy (09:23)
Yeah.

Well, I mean, that’s brilliant. That’s that’s so brilliant. So tell me a little bit about that. So, I mean, obviously, you know, we’ve really got a certain time for this podcast, and it can’t go on for three days, because I know that everything you do is so intense, and we can talk about it for ages. But what are kind of some of the main things that you do to support people to have that sense of belonging and value?

Max Horton (09:49)
You know, really I’m still quite new in this role actually, but I think probably it’d be good to tell the story of how I ended up here, because it’s certainly not where I thought I would be maybe at 16. I think to be honest, it was actually, you know, the COVID pandemic that really kind of

Esi Hardy (09:58)
Yep.

Max Horton (10:09)
kicked off my journey. So obviously as somebody who is immune compromised, I had to shield. And I think the pandemic really brought to the world’s attention just how many people there are who are classified as vulnerable in our as I say, many people, myself included, were asked to shield for quite a long period of time.

So it was the COVID pandemic really that inspired me to found EMPOWER which is our employee inclusion group dedicated to those living with disability, chronic illness, or neurodiversity. I think COVID really brought to the world’s attention just how many vulnerable people there are in our society. And many people, myself included, were asked to shield for quite a long period of time, which was…

incredibly isolating, absolute nightmare for me personally. So the Office for National Statistics tells us that 20 % of working-age adults identify as disabled. You that’s one in five of us, a really huge number. So I wanted to use that momentum and that visibility that we were seeing kind of within society to build a platform within the business for those living with additional needs. And really to try and

shape a workplace that works for everyone. But I guess first and foremost, it was about making sure that people had a place to come and speak about what was going on with them, speak about their fears, their needs, their wants, all those kinds of things. So I was really sure that EMPOWER would be a small group of really passionate people who kind of every so often we put together an awareness event or, you know, maybe just run a regular support group.

Cut to four years later and EMPOWER had grown its membership by over 300%. We had new chapters popping up all over the world. We had a multi-tiered steering committee of really incredible, passionate people, all dedicated to kind of improving the experience of our disabled colleagues. So EMPOWER was a real passion for me. I absolutely loved it. It was such a privilege.

to grow that network into the absolute powerhouse that it is today. So I think that really was what helped me to realise that inclusion and belonging was my passion. So when the opportunity arose to head up our inclusion and belonging efforts, I absolutely grabbed it with both hands. This really is my dream job. And I’m so incredibly grateful to do what I love each and every single day. I had a kind of full circle moment recently.

Esi Hardy (12:23)
Okay.

Max Horton (12:39)
where I realised actually if it wasn’t for my Crohn’s diagnosis I probably wouldn’t be where I am today, I wouldn’t have recognised my passion and I wouldn’t be doing my dream job.

Esi Hardy (12:48)
I think that’s a really powerful message. I want to in a minute circle back to kind of how EMPOWER really, really grew at quite a great rate of knots. But I think I want to talk first of all about kind of that end message of your recognition that if it wasn’t for Crohn’s disease, you wouldn’t be where you are now. And I think that’s really powerful, both for non disabled and disabled people. We talk about internalised ableism.

and internalised ableism appears in so many different forms. I’ve been doing a lot of work recently on empowerment and self-advocacy for groups of disabled people, which I really, really enjoy. And I myself, and that for me, sparked off in the summer when I did an interview for the care agency that I’m with actually, on my experiences.

and he asked me what I would say to disabled people who don’t feel as confident and as empowered by their disability as I seem to. I think that was a direct quote actually. And I said it’s about understanding what your…

what your kind of power is for yourself. I don’t mean like in a glib way like what’s your superpower. I don’t mean that but I mean understand where you have the power, what you’re learning and what your experiences have given you. And I think for me that is why the social model of disability is so important because it gives us a framework that reminds us that it’s not us that are causing the problem and actually we have a lot of

of strength in our impairment because it gives us so much, gives us resilience, gives us opportunity as you’re just explaining us, it gives us that experience as well. So I really wanted to kind of…

not let that message go because I think that message that you ended with there is so powerful and I hope everybody that listens to this can really take that on and understand what they can do with that message for themselves, whether they’re disabled or not disabled, but also maybe for the people, the friends, the family members and the colleagues that they might be supporting and whatever way that means to them as well. So thank you very much for that.

Max Horton (14:51)
Absolutely. And

I absolutely agree as well with that kind of self-hatred. I went through such a period of denial and I guess it is grief. It’s grief when… So my disability is acquired. I say acquired, it’s not acquired. It’s inherent. It’s somewhere in between inherent and acquired because I was born with the faulty gene or whichever it is that…

Esi Hardy (15:06)
Mm.

Max Horton (15:15)
causes Crohn’s disease but didn’t actually manifest until I was 16 and that was such a formative time in my life. I was taking my GCSEs and you know my grades suffered accordingly. There was the fear you don’t know what’s happening, you don’t have a name to it, you just sudden all you know is you’re going to the toilet 25 times a day, you’re doubled over in pain, you’re losing weight at a rapid pace.

Esi Hardy (15:19)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (15:37)
And then suddenly, I was very lucky, some people I think now it’s a year, I think probably before people get diagnosed with Crohn’s, I was very quick in my diagnosis. think I was, yeah, it’s unfortunate, but it’s true. We’ll have to check the statistics I think. And I kind of, got my diagnosis quite quickly. I think it was maybe four months-ish, something like that.

Esi Hardy (15:46)
Wow. Wow.

Max Horton (16:00)
There needs to be more awareness, I think, amongst GPs on the warning signs for IBD. I think it masks itself a lot as IBS or things like that, which is completely understandable. But that kind of said, I really did go through a period of grief. I went through all of the stages of grief and denial was the worst one.

I at 16, you don’t want to be told you can’t eat this, you can’t eat that, you must do this, you must do that. My friends were all out doing, know, goodness knows what, partying, know, drinking, smoking and all the rest of it. I was going to hospital. I was visiting hospital. was having cytotoxic drugs infused. I was spending the next few days feeling rubbish and that made me incredibly angry. I hated.

doing all of this. And I did not listen to the recommendations. I didn’t take my medications I was supposed to, which ultimately led to more problems. But that was kind of the act of rebellion because it was self hatred. It was that internalized ableism. was, I am going to pretend that nothing’s happening and I’ll be okay. And really that mindset, you do get to acceptance of course in the end, but people say to me now,

Esi Hardy (16:56)
Mm.

Max Horton (17:11)
you know, you’re so brave, you’re so brave for either telling your story or for everything you’ve gone through. And I always say to, I’m not brave. I’m not brave at all. This is going to happen to me, whether I’m brave or not. So it’s not, it’s not what happens to you. It’s how you deal with it. And what I’ve learned is how to deal with it better and to gain that power back. So I took my power back by saying to

Esi Hardy (17:26)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (17:35)
my Crohn’s, the visual embodiment of my Crohn’s, you live in my body, I don’t live in your body. So I took my power back that way and I kind of made it my mission. I’m going to do everything I can to beat you. I’m going to make myself powerful. I’m going to make myself strong. And that’s kind of how I came to view it. Now, if I had a relapse, you know, such would I don’t.

Esi Hardy (17:47)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Max Horton (17:57)
If I had a relapse, I can’t say that I would deal with it in the best way. I would definitely go through that anger again, because as we know, grief, or as I learn, grief isn’t linear. Grief isn’t, I’m very sad or very angry, and then I kind of gradually get less sad or less angry. It’s a rollercoaster. You know, you’re up and down all the time. So, as I said, it’s kind of not what happens to you, it’s how you deal with it.

Esi Hardy (18:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that’s all now. Yeah.

I think that’s a really strong message. On that message, what would you tell disabled people that might be watching this, who hopefully are watching this thinking, well, I don’t know how to even start thinking like that?

Max Horton (18:30)
Really, I guess it’s getting to a place of acceptance, but it’s also sitting with your feelings. It’s okay to be angry about it. It’s okay to rage at the world and say, this isn’t fair. It’s not fair. Ultimately, it’s not fair. As much as we are disability champions, I don’t think anybody would choose to be disabled. I think it’s probably fair to say. But there is a place of acceptance that we can get to.

Esi Hardy (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Nope. I think so.

Max Horton (18:55)
and it’s finding that place of acceptance, but it’s also kind of not beating yourself up. It’s being kind to yourself. I think self-compassion is a real, a real power that we can have. And it’s something I’m personally working on. I’ve been reading a book by Dr. Kristin Neff, which is, which is all about self-compassion and it’s having that love for yourself. It’s recognizing that this is hard and it’s okay that this is hard, but we can get through this with self-compassion. it’s, I think,

understanding the kind of situation that you’re in, processing those feelings, getting to that place of acceptance and then picking yourself up, dusting yourself off and saying, how am I going to tackle this now? What am I going to do to make the best of a bad situation? I think is probably the advice I would say. It’s very flippant. I’m sure there will be people I’m sure who disagree. I can only kind of speak from my own point of view.

Esi Hardy (19:46)
Was that a conscious process for you? Or do you think you’re reflecting back and that’s the journey you went through?

Max Horton (19:50)
No. No.

Absolutely, I’m definitely kind of reflecting back on that. And I was very lucky, I had a really great support network who helped me through that. Crohn’s and Colitis UK, I want to kind of shout out here as well. They were a huge help. The information and resources that they have on their website is just second to none. They were absolutely fantastic at supporting their patients.

So, or supporting patients with, you know, inflammatory bowel disease. So, definitely they were a huge help. My family were great, my friends were great. I was very, very lucky. I was also very lucky to have the care of the physicians that I do.

Esi Hardy (20:30)
good.

Max Horton (20:30)
I did,

they helped me to that place of acceptance but it’s certainly something that comes in in time and it’s again being kind to yourself and thinking this is really hard and I’m gonna feel my feelings about it but ultimately I’m gonna kind of do something with these feelings.

Esi Hardy (20:36)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. And it doesn’t have to be immediate. It’s not like I’ve been diagnosed and now I need to act quickly. It’s something that happens over time, as you say. And it’s kind of taking each day as it comes, I suppose. Yeah.

Max Horton (21:00)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Taking each day as it comes, doing things that are going to help you kind of in your situation. If you’re having a particularly bad day, for example, if it was something with Crohn’s, obviously I can speak to that. If it is something Crohn’s related. If you want to have a day in bed, have a day in bed.

If you want to sit and sit with a hot water bottle on and watch Netflix all day, don’t feel guilty about that. That’s what your body needs. Listen to your body. That’s my biggest piece of advice. Listen to your body. It will tell you what it needs. Sometimes, I mean, my body cannot be a hundred percent relied upon.

Esi Hardy (21:29)
Mm.

Max Horton (21:34)
but you get what I’m saying, the mind will tell you what it means. So something I found incredibly helpful in terms of managing the mental health aspects, because I think that’s such an important part of disability, chronic illness and neurodiversity. Something that really helped me was meditation, yoga.

Esi Hardy (21:36)
I do, yeah.

Definitely.

Max Horton (21:53)
was really, really helpful for me, particularly during COVID actually, because we lost that kind of transition from work to home. We were just kind of home and work and home and work. So I needed to find that kind of transition and yoga was what I found. And kind of not only did I improve my flexibility and my health, I did it more for the mental health benefits because I felt great after taking that time to be intentionally mindful.

Esi Hardy (22:02)
Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (22:18)
⁓ I was always a bit skeptical, I will say. ⁓ I’m a typical Yorkshire guy and I’m always a bit skeptical of these kind of things, but really it was phenomenal for my mental health in particular. So looking after your mental health is another really, really important aspect.

Esi Hardy (22:33)
I agree. So I’m 44 years old and I would say that these strategies that you’ve mentioned about mental health, something I’ve only just kind of realized myself recently. So I mean, and it can help with all sorts of areas from anxiety to sleeplessness. So actually last night I couldn’t sleep. I was just thinking about what was going on in my week. I always sleep better at the weekend when I don’t have to strategize about work.

And then as soon as Sunday hits I can’t sleep again. But I couldn’t sleep and I actually did some breathing exercises, those box exercises. So you breathe in for four, out for four and you visualize the box as you go around. And then I tried to test myself to 10 and then I thought no, Esi you don’t want to actually pass out doing this. That’s not the point. But the point I’m trying to make is some of these ⁓ exercises can be dependent on your

physical ability. So for me yoga is kind of an no no. But there are there are mental, mindful things that we can also do to reset our well-being as well, like yoga. And like you know if we can go out for a walk or I you know I call it a walk and I’m in my wheelchair. Go out for a walk or

just put what I do sometimes when I need to switch off my brain is maybe put off a put on a podcast that I don’t really I’m not really 100 % committed to what the story is, but I just need something else to focus on. And so find, you know, as opposed to find these small things that work for you as an individual.

And then, you know, share them as well. Something that helps me as well is naming my frustrations. So I say to my friends, I’m having a really crip day and they know exactly what I mean. And my disabled friends will laugh with me because they feel it too. Or my other friend says I’m having a dropsy day because she means she drops everything all the time. And just that, that kind of putting vocabulary to what’s happening can really help take the frustration away sometimes.

Max Horton (24:34)
You know, absolutely, and I think finding your tribe is a really good, a good coping strategy. If you don’t have anyone kind of close to hand, obviously, you know, social media is a blessing in a curse, ⁓ but there are communities out there available. You know, again, I have to shout out Crohn’s and Colitis UK, they have local networks.

Esi Hardy (24:44)
Okay.

Max Horton (24:53)
They can put you in touch with people. There are Facebook support groups and all that kind of things. Do engage with them because you’ll be surprised at what you find. And just hearing from somebody who understands, I think because disability, chronic illness, neurodiversity can be so isolating, just listening to somebody go, I’ve been through this too and I know how hard it is.

can be really freeing actually because when you’re in that mindset it really can feel like you’re the only one in the world who feels like this. making the effort to kind of seek out other people who may be going through something similar, it might help them, you know, just to hear from you as well. So you can be an active participant. So finding your tribe, finding the humor and you you spoke about this.

Esi Hardy (25:31)
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Max Horton (25:40)
you know, regularly, I regularly say to my friends, the first rule of Croens is never trust a fart. And that is very specific toilet humour, but it works if you can laugh. If you can laugh at it. It’s like that well-known wizarding world, the author of which shall remain nameless.

Esi Hardy (25:52)
Yeah, it’s probably quite accurate as well, yeah.

Thanks.

Okay.

Max Horton (26:07)
⁓

There’s this spell to get rid of something scary and you have to laugh at it and it’s very true. know, laughter really does help to cope. Find the humour in it and that’s, you know, then you’re winning.

Esi Hardy (26:22)
I think, again, humour, yeah, I agree with you completely. Humour kind of just takes the seriousness out of it and puts the humanity back in things. And I think sometimes that’s what we need because it can be really serious without getting really political. know, disabled people, neurodivergent people, people with long-term health conditions and mental health conditions. We’re going through a really tough time at the moment.

and to kind of find the humor, not the humor in that, but find the humanity within ourselves, I think is really important. So yeah, thank you.

I just want to circle back as well to what you talking about, about how you grow the EMPOWER network. Because I think that we kind of, you mentioned it, but we moved on really quickly. And I think it needs to be acknowledged about how much you were able to grow that network really fast and galvanize it across so many regions across the world.

And I’m sure people in different areas were fundamental in supporting you to do that, but it started with your vision. So I want you to kind of talk about how you were able to grow that and give us some kind of strategies on how we galvanize a community in such a way.

Max Horton (27:32)
Absolutely, and I think, you know, the first, probably the biggest contributing factor is I just tapped into something that was missing. Not necessarily missing per se, but more, it tapped into something that I think everybody can relate to on some level. As I say, you know, up to 20 % of us are living with a disability of some kind.

Esi Hardy (27:49)
Yeah.

Max Horton (27:51)
that’s one in five people and I’m sure we all know at least five people. So this impacts us in one way or another. Whenever you talk about kind of disability of varying kinds, you often hear from people, ⁓ yeah, I know somebody with that or my uncle’s friend has that or something like that. So it really tapped into something I think we all have some level of experience with, whether that’s firsthand, secondhand, etc

Esi Hardy (27:55)
Huh?

Max Horton (28:15)
And I think because we’d not had that network previously, it tapped into something that people feel very strongly about and people consequently were very engaged with it. So quite often actually I would hear from people whose children or parents or their brother or sister were living with a condition and because that individual has such experience with it, such

you know, close experience with it. They felt very strongly about advocating for other people. So I think allyship certainly is one of the biggest parts that helped EMPOWER to grow, one of the biggest contributing factors. In terms of strategies, having a strong communication strategy, how we tell the story is incredibly important. So, you know, as we know, a story has a beginning, middle and an end.

Esi Hardy (29:04)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (29:04)
for me it was about really laying out first and foremost just how many people in society live with disability and I use disability as a bit of a cover-all because it’s very quick instead of saying disability chronic illness and or

storytelling is such an incredibly powerful aspect of the strategy. You have to kind of bring people along on the journey. People have to understand in the beginning how many people are currently experiencing this. As I say, up to 20 % of people. So this is affecting a very significant number of us. I think, you when I think about Smith and Nephew it’s…

Esi Hardy (29:24)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (29:36)
20 % of 18,000 which is 3000 something something something. So it’s first of all kind of laying that out. For me what helped was sharing my own story. I know not everybody’s kind of confident or comfortable in doing so but that was another really powerful thing because when people are dealing with kind of an abstract concept I can tell people about Crohn’s disease you know till the cows come home I can explain what it’s…

Esi Hardy (29:38)
Yeah.

Max Horton (30:02)
what it is from a kind of physiological perspective. But when I share my lived experience as a colleague, I think people resonate quite a lot with that because they can then attribute the two things together. They can see, okay, well, I understand the physiology now that has been explained to me, but also I know how this is impacting my colleague. This is somebody I know. This is somebody I care about, hopefully.

So when you link those two together that’s actually quite powerful as well. So firstly it’s kind of telling that story of this is my story, this is how it affects me, this is how it affects society, here’s where we can kind of, here’s where some of the gaps are, here’s where we’re doing things really well, here’s where we want to go in the future.

And again, it’s kind of bringing people along on that journey, I think is really powerful. And I think what’s useful is I’m a bit of an extrovert, so I kind of don’t mind getting up there and talking people’s ears off about this kind of thing. So finding you champion is a good strategy. Also kind of really getting a good understanding of where the gaps are.

If I was speaking to kind of myself at the beginning of my journey with EMPOWER, I’d probably say, you know, take a look at what’s missing, what we’re doing well, but what’s kind of missing and focusing energies in that direction as well. I think what is also very, very helpful and is something that I feel very, very passionate about. And it’s something that I bring to my role each and every day is showcasing how inclusion and belonging

really benefits the business.

Esi Hardy (31:32)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (31:33)
So I think one of the aspects of my role that I feel particularly passionate about really is showcasing how inclusion of belonging benefits a business. So in today’s very polarized world, people have very strong opinions on the argument for and against inclusion of belonging. So for me, inclusion isn’t just a nice to have, it’s a superpower for people and for businesses.

Esi Hardy (31:50)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (31:57)
When people feel that they belong, something really powerful happens. They stop holding themselves back, they speak up, they contribute ideas, they solve problems, they collaborate, innovate. And the data really is undeniable. So companies with inclusive decision-making teams are 75 % more likely to exceed their financial targets. Gender diverse inclusive teams outperform others by up to 50%.

Organizations in the top quartile for ethnic diversity are 36 % more likely to exceed profitability benchmarks. So businesses don’t just kind of invest in inclusion because it looks good, they invest in it because it works. It fuels creativity, it fuels innovation, and ultimately it fuels success. In fact, companies with high diversity tend to see a 19 % higher innovation revenue.

I mean think about that, nearly a fifth of new ideas and income come from diversity of thought, experience and background. And inclusive teams tend to actually make better decisions 87 % of the time in half the time with half as many meetings. That’s what belonging does. That’s the power of inclusion and belonging. You when people feel that they belong, they don’t just perform better, they feel better.

that sense of belonging can really boost job performance by up to 56%. And 91 % of people who feel that they belong at work are engaged, energized, and willing to go that extra mile compared to just 20 % of them don’t. And then when it comes to kind of choosing where to work, 76 % of employees and job seekers say that inclusion and belonging programs actually influence their decision.

Esi Hardy (33:32)
And I think that’s just going to get higher and higher as the new generations come in because new generations are not accepting anything but. And you know, I think the statistics speak for themselves. And I would wonder if anyone, if they really stopped and thought about it would think, yeah, no, I prefer to stay in this place where…

nobody really cares about me and I don’t see that I fit in. So yeah, I think those statistics really, really speak for themselves and can resonate with every single person when they really stop to think about what that actually means.

Max Horton (34:06)
Absolutely, you know, to your point, culture matters like never before. People care about employee culture, not just kind of job titles or salaries. People want to work where they feel seen, where they feel heard and feel valued. So, you know, I can speak to how we bring this to life at Smith & Nephew Our culture is built around the three pillars of care, collaboration, and courage. And inclusion really brings all those pillars to life.

Esi Hardy (34:12)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Max Horton (34:30)
So care is about how we support one another, about how we create safe spaces for difficult conversations and really kind of celebrate our differences. Courage is about that speaking up, that challenging bias and being the first person to say, let’s do better. And then collaboration, know, collaboration is recognizing really that we’re stronger when every voice is part of the conversation.

Esi Hardy (34:31)
So.

Max Horton (34:52)
We, as part of my role, you we run global networks, we have support communities, we create learning opportunities, we host events and build real change into our policies and practices. For me, inclusion isn’t just a project. It’s something that we weave into everything that we do. In ever changing world, I think it’s more important than ever that we continue to promote the incredible value of inclusion and belonging. So I think my advice to

people maybe just starting out in this kind of role is tell that story. Tell the story of inclusion and belonging and what it means for your business. Meet people where they’re at and bring them along for the journey. Look at where you’re coming from, where you want to go and how you’re going to get there. And you’re winning.

Esi Hardy (35:33)
Mm-hmm.

I don’t think I have anything to add to that. I completely agree, Max. Thank you very much. So I think that when…

So if I think about how we set goals in general, so taking away from inclusion and belonging for two seconds, if I think about how I set goals, I need to have a vision in mind in order to know then how to kind of achieve my vision, or it can work the other way around. I need the goal to help me think about what the vision is. So what would you say to companies that literally don’t know what that looks like for them?

Max Horton (36:10)
It’s a tricky one because it’s understanding your population, I think, is the first step. It’s getting a snapshot in time of where your current inclusion efforts stand. And if that’s not great or not where you want it to be, that’s okay. This is all a journey. We don’t start out at 100%. We know exactly what we’re doing and where we want it to go. Leveraging, I think, experts and champions and

And SMEs is the way forward. Listen to the employee population. I’ve just done a big listening tour in the US, which was absolutely phenomenal. I met so many people and heard from all of these people on what inclusion belonging means to them, what employee culture means to them. And I think they really appreciated the opportunity as well to kind of feed into that. So listening to people, I think is the biggest, biggest takeaway.

is understanding you probably have, know, businesses will have an idea of where they would like to get to and have an, probably have an idea of the things they would like to implement. But that’s kind of nothing without the employee voice. You have to look at what your employees wants and needs are. And as I said, understanding your employee population is going to be a massive step. really taking the temperature with those qualitative insights.

but also taking the temperature with quantitative insights. How much do you actually know about your employee population? If you don’t measure, you can’t improve. And that’s kind of the biggest thing. Nobody’s going to be perfect at it 100 % of the time. When we think about inclusion of belonging, when we think about employee demographics, there are so many laws and regulations which govern how we must collect, store, and communicate that data, and rightfully so.

Esi Hardy (37:32)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (37:55)
But there are compliant ways to do so. And the more you know about your employee population, the better you can serve your employee population. If you know that, if you have the data there, you can look at where the gaps are and you can say, actually, we need to focus our attention here. You can design targeted interventions. If you can take the temperature and see that your gender pay gap is particularly high, for example, you can design targeted interventions to address that.

And often these are the root causes of some of the wider social issues at a business. And often people just feeling heard can go such a long way. If you show that you’re listening, if you implement something like you said we did, you told us that at this site there’s not enough disabled parking spaces. Okay, we’ve added five more. It’s a really small thing, but it’s so powerful in building trust.

and helping people to feel that they are valued and that they are listened to and that the business actually cares about them. And that’s something I think we do really well at Smith and Nephew is listening to the employee voice. So that’s something I think is, you know, really, really powerful for any business is really, as I said, take the time to listen to your employees. Don’t go in with any preconceived notions of what you think is going to be right or wrong or anything like that. Find out what your employees need from you and the rest will come.

Esi Hardy (39:15)
Yeah, I 100 % agree with everything you said. we, spoke to Katie Allen, who is an EDI expert. And we were talking around kind of having these difficult conversations. And she was talking very similarly to you’re talking now. And one of the things we were highlighting in that conversation is that it’s so important to…

Create a psychological safe environment where when you’re asking your employees these questions they feel confident to answer because they know why you’re asking and you know what the repercussions are and aren’t

of asking those questions and also being mindful that people aren’t necessarily going to tell you the first time you ask for a multitude of reasons. You know, they might not know themselves because they haven’t had time to process the question. They might have to think about it. They may not want to engage in and and and be part of that conversation. And that’s also fine. It might take several touch points and a question being broken down in several ways. So I know this isn’t what you

⁓ referring to at all Max but an example is I’m very good at asking four questions at once and then realizing actually nobody can can bite that if I need to break these questions down so so kind of thinking about what you need to know at what point and then what you’re going to do with that information before you ask the next thing as well and it comes back to kind of this this idea about engagement fatigue

Max Horton (40:40)
I’m sitting here.

Esi Hardy (40:45)
And I strongly believe that nobody gets bored of being asked their opinion. People get tired of not seeing what’s happening as a result of them taking time to give their opinion. So as you know, just going back to what you were saying, highlighting what you’re saying, it’s so important to action that and show people where you’re going. Even if you can’t action it straight away, you know, show people the plan of what is going to happen next.

Max Horton (41:09)
people have to understand why you’re asking this information. You can’t just collect information for the sake of it. You have to have a plan on what you’re going to do with it. help people to understand. So there’s two parts to it. There’s having the infrastructure there, I think, first and foremost, making sure that it’s a compliant infrastructure, but it’s also, there’s, there’s the part of it that is kind of the

self-ID campaign side of things. You you have to help people to understand what this information is going to be used for, how it actually benefits them. Because ultimately people want to understand, if I give you this information, how is this going to benefit me? You know, we can explain how it benefits the business, we can explain how it will lead to better outcomes and all of the rest of it. But ultimately people are disclosing something that’s incredibly sensitive. So they need to understand that this is going to be used in the right way.

Esi Hardy (41:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (41:59)
I think the more we progress in time, we’re kind of, think, a little bit conscious of how much information we disclose and where it goes. So being very transparent about that, think, is a huge thing for any business.

Esi Hardy (42:13)
Agreed completely. For our listeners, can you just tell us what Self ID campaign is?

Max Horton (42:18)
Absolutely. So a Self-ID campaign is really encouraging people to disclose demographic information. And again, you know, the way that you go about that is first outlining the information that you need and helping people to understand what’s driving your request. Again, you know, telling that story. What’s driving that request? How are you going to use this information? Where are you going to store this information? How does this benefit the business, but how does this benefit me?

So it also helps as a little handy tip, it helps with corporate governance. ⁓ know, some jurisdictions will kind of require businesses to evidence that they are encouraging self-disclosure. So it’s making sure that people feel safe, you know, to disclose that information. They understand why you’re asking it, asking it in the right way. I think the famous example is probably the disability question.

Esi Hardy (42:49)
Mm-hmm.

in

Max Horton (43:09)
There’s such a shyness in the UK of asking the question on disability. And there is a right and a wrong way. There is ⁓ a compliant and non-compliant way. We can’t say to people, are you disabled? Yes or no? For two reasons. One, because it’s completely the wrong question to ask socially. It’s very reductive. But two, it’s illegal. So the way that you go about that is

Esi Hardy (43:21)
Yeah.

Max Horton (43:33)
The UK Equality Act 2010 defines a disability as this, this, this, this, this, and this, broadly speaking. Yes, no, not to say. Do you consider yourself to meet any of the above categories? Another optional question, if yes, do you consider yourself to meet this, this, this, or this category and all this category? And then another optional question, think this, don’t quote me on this, but I think this is okay to do, is,

Yes, no, I prefer not to say it. Would you be comfortable for our data disclosure reasons to identify, you know, the conditions that you live with or something like that? Anyway, there’s a way to do these things, but not only does this help you in from a compliance perspective, you also get better quality data. So if you said to me, for example, are you disabled? I would probably say no, because that’s not how I choose to identify myself. Does the Equality Act…

say that I am disabled, yes it does, because I have Crohn’s disease, I was diagnosed with ADHD at 30, which was an eye-opener, explained a lot, and I was also diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder, which is recently been kind of, starting to cross that barrier from a mental health condition to a neurodivergency. So for those kind of three reasons, yes, the Equality Act would define me as disabled, but again, I don’t

Esi Hardy (44:46)
Mm.

Max Horton (44:53)
I don’t choose to identify myself that way. So I would say no to that question. But if you said to me, do you have a chronic illness? Do you have a chronic illness which can or does impact significantly your day-to-day activities? Yes, absolutely I do. Do you have a form of neurodivergency which has been, in fact, I don’t think you need to have a diagnosis to be classified as disabled. So I would say, well, yes, I do. have two.

Esi Hardy (45:13)
No, you don’t.

Max Horton (45:19)
Do you a mental health disorder? Yes, I do. It’s OCD or, you know, and in the past I’ve been diagnosed with anxiety and depression. So, you know, yes, I do. And again, you know, that gathers better quality data. You can see, you can really drill down into your employee population and kind of see what the makeup is in that sense. But if you just say to people, are you disabled? You know, A, they’re not going to answer the question and B, the information’s kind of not very helpful. So.

Esi Hardy (45:41)
It’s not very helpful. Yeah.

Max Horton (45:44)
So yeah, so that’s kind of the way that I look at it anyway.

Esi Hardy (45:48)
Thank you very much. completely agree. And I think, you know, just, just going on to that point as well, I think is really important for people, for businesses and organizations to consider what, I know we talked about what you’re going to do with it and why you’re asking, but it’s so important to consider why you’re asking. Because if you’re an SME and you’re asking all these questions, what capacity do you actually have to first of all store that information to do something about it? So yes.

you should still be getting this data and creating your inclusive workplace. But think about what your capacity as an organization is and therefore what you’re going to ask in that capacity of what you have and what you can do in that organization. And maybe you have goals of what you want to do in five, 10 years, but keep it to what you can achieve in the next six months to an annual year. But yeah, I completely agree.

Max Horton (46:40)
Exactly.

And it’s, having that maturity model, I think is a, is a really important part on any D&I journey, any DEI, I&B, EDI, etc Having your maturity model there. Where are you coming from? Where do you want to go? What’s your plan to get there? Is really important. Don’t try and boil the ocean all in one go as well, because this is such a big and broad task. Inclusion and belonging covers so many different things.

Esi Hardy (46:55)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (47:05)
⁓

So I think it’s really important for any business to understand what your journey is going to be. It’s where are you coming from? Where do you want to go? But it’s also understanding and kind of accepting you can’t boil the ocean all in one go.

Um, it’s how you can only the elephant one bite at a time. I don’t advocate eating elephants. you can only climb the mountain one step at a time and all of those kinds of very nice businessy, businessy speak, soundbites, but it’s focusing on what your priorities are. Where are your, where are you going to direct your resources? It’s great if you’ve got a really big infrastructure, if you’ve got really, you know, Smith and Nephew you know, we have probably more resources than.

a smaller company, for example. And I have to say, I’m incredibly lucky. The scope of my role is very, very large. Inclusion and belonging covers such a broad spectrum. I spoke at a careers event for migrant leaders, ⁓ for young people last week, and they said, what is your role?

Esi Hardy (47:55)
Mm.

Max Horton (48:02)
what do you do? And I said, oh goodness, how long have you got? Because the scope of my role is so incredibly large. I’m very, very lucky to be supported by a great leadership structure. know, a big shout out to my manager, Viv McSweeney, who’s our Senior Director of Culture. She’s absolutely phenomenal. And our boss, Nikki West, who’s our SVP of Talent , Learning and Culture. She’s an absolutely phenomenal advocate as well. And of course,

fabulous Elga Lohler who is our Chief HR Officer, all incredibly passionate advocates. So I’m very, very lucky to be supported in that respect. But as I say, know, for businesses with a smaller kind of footprint, more limited resources, again, it’s identifying what are your priorities, what are your priority goals, where are your gaps, and doing an assessment, being very honest with yourselves and doing an assessment at the beginning.

is the first step. it’s that first step on the mountain, if you like. There’s the maturity model aspect. There is also a number of considerations to be made. Really involve your legal partners, your compliance partners as well, because it’s not just data privacy laws. There are also what’s called localization laws for businesses with a global footprint.

You know, in terms of where you can store that information. Saudi Arabia is a good example. Data must be stored within that jurisdiction and must not be taken out of that jurisdiction. So of course that’s an additional challenge to a consistent data collection strategy. So yeah, as I say, taking a snapshot in time, really understanding where you’re coming from.

Esi Hardy (49:32)
So in what you’ve just explained, you have given so many pieces of advice and tips for people working in this space, in the EDI space, in the EDIB space, whatever is called in that person’s organisation. Are there any specific tips you think that people can go?

and either start implementing or working on or look up in their organisation that you can pass on to our listeners. Either actually both as a disabled person for themselves and also as an EDI professional.

Max Horton (50:04)
As an EDI professional, think first and foremost is start holding listening sessions, identify some key demographics that you want to hear from and identify a representative sample as well. You know, it must be a fair test as we all heard in school, it must be a fair test. So start holding listening sessions. Just go with no preconceived notions. Maybe don’t even go with a very long list of questions. Ask some general questions. Often if you say to people,

Esi Hardy (50:08)
Mm-hmm.

Max Horton (50:32)
How are you feeling about this? They are not backwards and coming forwards. They will tell you if they’re not happy about something. So start there. Start with those qualitative insights before moving on to the quantitative. I think those are what’s going to kind of shape your direction more than anything else.

Identify some key partners, both internal and external. Are there any external organizations that can help you in your journey? Are there any SMEs that can help you to understand the landscape, to understand maybe the legalities? Who can kind of advise you best on that journey? And, you know, don’t be afraid to not know something. It’s okay to kind of not be fully au fait with everything. I use external experts for…

various topics because I either don’t have lived experience, I’m not exposed to those topics. So I make sure to actively educate myself on those things and understanding as well that the learning journey is never complete. I learn something new every day. I’m very, very lucky to be surrounded by a great group of people. have seven

or eight employ inclusion groups at Smith and Nephew that I oversee. And each of their leaders are, you know, incredible champions for their respective areas. And, you know, they teach me a lot of things as well. You know, they impart their wisdom to me and they give me really great insights into, into what’s working well and what’s not working so well. So again, it’s just what it all boils down to is listening, is active listening and making sure, kind of knowing what you don’t know.

is really, really powerful. So I guess that would be my top piece of advice to people in my position. And then there’s a second question about as a disabled person.

Esi Hardy (52:02)
Mm-hmm

disabled people,

but can I just before we go on to the advice for disabled people, I completely kind of agree with that 100%. And I would like to remind people that that should not be done without everything that Max said a little bit earlier about helping people to understand why this is happening and what is it. So it’s not about just walking into an open office and saying, tell me how you feel about this. Because people will be like, what?

Max Horton (52:18)
Yeah.

Esi Hardy (52:41)
but enable people to get ready for the question by doing all those things that Max talked about before. But brilliant. So the second part was about any advice that you’d give to disabled employees who perhaps don’t feel empowered in the workplace.

Max Horton (52:56)
If you, think advocating for yourself is really important. Understanding your value is just as great as anybody else’s, your experiences, your perspectives matter just as much as anybody else. If you don’t already have one, start an employee network. Start an employee network for people with disabilities and it can just be a support group at the beginning and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Esi Hardy (53:13)
Hmm.

Max Horton (53:22)
So finding some like-minded people, you’ll find actually, interestingly, it might feel like it’s just you, but remember, you know, it’s one in five of us in the UK, you know, it’s even more in other areas in the US, it’s one in four. So there will be somebody else within the business that you can talk to who either has lived experience or, you know, firsthand experience, whether that’s a parent, a child, a brother, sister, whoever.

they will also have some lived experience and feel passionately about it. gather those like-minded people, get together, discuss first. Firstly, just talk about what it’s like to live as a person with a disability and share your experiences. Find that kind of strength in unity, strength in your shared experiences, and then you can build to advocating for yourselves as a group.

you know, because the more people you have, the stronger your voice. Find some vocal champions, find a vocal champion, find a senior leader, find a sponsor if you can, because often that’s kind of the key to unlocking some of the more impactful changes at a systemic level. know, as again, firstly find your tribe and then kind of look to find a champion.

and the rest will come naturally.

Esi Hardy (54:37)
I completely agree and there are and I will put them in the show notes. Unfortunately, it’s not coming to mind at the moment, but there are quite a few groups for people that don’t necessarily belong to an organisation. kind of individual self-employed business owners. There are quite a few groups online where people can join that group for the exact same reason. So I will put that in the show notes as well for people.

Max Horton (55:01)
Perfect.

Esi Hardy (55:01)
Thank you very much Max. So before we go on to how people can get in touch with you and the end bits of our episode, is there anything else you would like people to know?

Max Horton (55:11)
So in terms of I think any any final thoughts is get comfortable with not having the answers. I need to take my own advice a lot in that respect. I panic when I don’t have the answers but it’s okay to not know everything. You know you can be the most seasoned

inclusion and belonging expert there is and you will still not have all of the answers. You could have a PhD in inclusion and belonging and there will still be things that come along and surprise you and that’s fine. You know, we’re all human, it’s the one thing that connects us all. So don’t worry about not having all of the answers. Speak up for people, don’t speak over people, I think is another thing. One kind of experience in particular recently

So I attended MedTech conference in San Diego recently and there is a lot of talk on health equity And it’s great to see such a strong focus in the MedTech industry on health equity and improving health equity across the the industry, but as a man I don’t have lived experience of that. So I need to rely on my peers. I need to rely on

my SMEs to kind of guide me in that respect because I don’t want to speak up for people and speak over them. So it’s understanding how you can best advocate for communities without, you know, speaking over them essentially. And yeah, I think that’s probably my best advice I can give.

Esi Hardy (56:30)
I love that end takeaway that we don’t, and when I was nodding, I wasn’t agreeing with you like, I know you don’t have all the answers, Max. I was agreeing because I also relate to that, that I don’t like not having the answers. And I think you can tell when I don’t, because I kind of go into this waffle state, which is more probably about anxiety than anything else. But yes, no, being comfortable with that discomfort about not knowing the answers, I think that’s the best way because…

That’s where the the exciting times start because we’re going on the journey to learn something new. So yeah, thank you for that. So in our wrap up, I would like to first of all understand who your influences are and who you would recommend for people to look up after listening to this episode. Obviously, I’m being your biggest influencer. Of course. Funny enough, everybody that I’ve interviewed had said that as well.

Max Horton (57:15)
Of course, of course, Essie, you are my biggest influence, of course.

Esi Hardy (57:22)
I know it’s weird, isn’t it? Yeah.

Max Horton (57:20)
How funny, interesting. Ever so strange. So I think, know, Crohn’s and Colitis UK, I think I have to, you know, have to shout out as one of my biggest influences. They are so patient focused and really, really dedicated to advocating for patients with IBD. So they were also incredibly helpful in kind of determining

just where to direct our time, energy, resources and things like that. McKinsey, think is another one that I would certainly shout out. So McKinsey’s Diversity Wins an Inclusion Research Series. That’s been a real game changer for me. It takes what we already know.

that inclusion drives better outcomes and really backs it up with solid evidence. So it’s really helped us make a stronger business case, I would say, for inclusion and belonging and really connect it to performance and innovation as well. So those are two of my biggest influences, of course, yourself being my biggest influence. And then in terms of how people can get in touch with me, I can be found on LinkedIn. So…

Esi Hardy (58:21)
Yes, please.

Max Horton (58:23)
Hopefully we’ll have my my LinkedIn details on the on the show notes as well. So Please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. Please feel free to drop me a message if there’s anything I can do to to support then Please let me know just hit me up

Esi Hardy (58:26)
Well indeed, well indeed.

Amazing. Thank you so much, Max.

So those organisations that Max talked about, McKinsey and Crohn’s and Colitis UK, will be in the show notes as well. So thank you very much for your time, Max. And we look forward to talking to you soon.

Max Horton (58:54)
Thank you very much.

Esi Hardy (58:56)
So thank you very much for tuning in everyone. ⁓ Please like and subscribe and we look forward seeing you in the next episode of the Equality Edit. Have a great day.