Episode Summary
In this episode of The Equality Edit, Esi Hardy is joined by EDI specialist, confidence coach and fellow podcast host Katie Allen to unpack why conversations about equality can feel so risky and what leaders can do to make them feel safer, clearer and more human.
Transcript
Esi:
Welcome to another episode of the Equality Edit, where we unpack equality one story at a time. Today I’m joined by my colleague, Katie, and rather than introduce her, I would like to hand over to her to introduce herself. So over to you, Katie.
Katie:
Ooh, thank you so much, Esi: much appreciated and thank you for having me here. So yes, so my name is Katie Allen. I am an equality, diversity and inclusion specialist, confidence coach and also a podcast host myself.
So it’s called Speaking of Inclusion. And there is a fabulous episode where I interview someone called Esi:, and we talk all about disability inclusion. But it’s basically all of those conversations that people just want to know the ins and outs of, on various topics. And I just love having conversations with people and it felt like a really good platform. It’s like making your own radio and no one can tell you you can’t, isn’t it? That’s why we want to do it.
Esi:
Yeah, I mean, I think in the days where podcasts began, that was a very dangerous game, wasn’t it? But I think people are realising that it can be a really useful tool to really educate and inform and share and enable people to understand that it’s not just one viewpoint that counts, it’s so many others as well.
Katie:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and there’s no right or wrong really in a lot of, mean, there’s pleasant and unpleasant, but everything is dependent upon the person or people that you’re speaking to and what it is they need and things. So it’s also nuanced. It’s just really great to have as many perspectives as possible so we can figure out, okay, what might be the best approach.
Esi:
I want to start, Katie, by you telling us just a little bit about yourself, the work that you do, and why equality is so important for you.
Katie:
Yeah, so the work that I do, and it’s interesting, I’m yet to meet anybody who works in the inclusion and equality space, who kind of went to school thinking, I’m going to do this as work. It always seems to be that we’ve all had experiences along the way that have led us to think, surely we can do better than this. And then we seem to find ourselves as the type of people that are, I shall make sure we do better than this.
And I’m no exception, right? So I started my career working on onshore on oil refineries. So I was working kind of up and down catalyst reactors and working with big old teams of people doing various projects around the world. And it’s a pretty male dominated space, you know, I’m going to say, let’s put it that way. And I always describe it as character building, right? In air quotes, because I had many experiences, lots of them fantastic, but quite a lot of them not pleasant.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
And I had that moment of realisation, several moments of realisation, but in really thinking actually we can do better than this. so my driver first came through gender equality and what are we doing to address that? But then of course, once you start, you you put a thread, don’t you? And you realise that intersectionality exists and so many other characteristics for different people exist and you can’t kind of stop yourself from that point. Once you know, you can’t unknown.
And that was, you know, that was a very long time ago now. And since then, I’ve just made it my life’s mission to try and improve every workplace one by one, improve every conversation one by one, that if we can just have better conversations, more honest and open conversations, that’s how we can really drive change. And I just, I just want to be the pebble that drops in to cause the ripples of change. And that essentially is then exactly all I do in my work. I’m just trying to help people, get over the fear of saying the wrong thing and have better conversations.
Esi:
I think what you’ve said there so interesting on so many different levels. I think it really adds to it when you come from such a different background, as in work background. That really has nothing to do with this space at all and really have the space to think, okay, this is not how life should be and I’m gonna do something about it. I actually was talking to a friend of mine the other day who’s an activist and hopefully she’ll record an episode with me as well. And I said, do you like being an activist? And she was like, well, I don’t like being an activist but I have to be an activist. And I was like, my God, my God, that’s a great title for the podcast episode.
But it’s so interesting that we all, don’t we, we come into these roles because we see the change that’s happening and we want to be the people that support make the difference.
Katie:
Absolutely. And actually, that’s such a good point you said about your friend the activist, because it’d be brilliant if we didn’t have to exist, right? If this work didn’t have to exist. Like, that’s my dream, is that if I can be so effective in my job, that I do myself out of a job, I will consider that a massive win. Unfortunately, I’m also going to hedge my bets that that’s probably not going to happen.
Esi:
Success.
Katie:
But that’s the goal, that would be amazing. And what you said then as well about coming into this from a different background, even in that as well, and this is something that for me is really important to acknowledge in all conversations is I also have to recognise that even though now I consider myself way more knowledgeable than I ever was before, way more experienced on how to handle conversations and how to make change happen, I was also… historically have been part of the problem that I was trying to correct. Like I was a senior leader, I was part of the system that was the system causing harm. So I also have to stop and think, well, my, how did my actions contribute? Which means I also know that some point in the future, I’ll be looking back now thinking, yeah, how could, how have my actions still been causing harm, even though I’m trying to do the best work. So it’s that, there’s always that feeling of
Esi :
And
Katie:
We’re never going to get it 100 % right when no one’s perfect, right? So just knowing that we’re all doing the best we can with the tools that we’ve got, but how do we take a step forward every time?
Esi:
Well, this I mean, this is why it’s a journey and not destination, right? I mean, you said at the beginning, like, I’d love to do myself out of a job, but I don’t think I ever will. So and I might be paraphrasing a bit. But, you know, cynical me, you’ll be like, well, I don’t want to do that, because what am going to do instead? But also the realistic me is, we understand that the world is ever evolving, and we’re ever learning more about our intersectionalities and who we are as people, and what we want as people as so it’s never an ending. And I think that it’s part of the journey to learn, you know, if I knew then what I knew now, then it would be a bit different. I would have handled that differently or, you know, I would have supported that person a different way, but we can’t. that, think that builds the fabric of who we are as EDI specialists, if that’s what you would call it.
Katie:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I agree.
Esi:
So one of the things we wanted to talk about today on this episode was conversations, mean, and language and terminology, because I know that’s a big part of the work that you do. So it’s when we talked about what we’re going to talk about in our conversations before, and I think a little bit about when you when you came on, when I came on your episode, sorry, we talked about kind of the fact that we really have to acknowledge that discomfort. And acknowledge that it’s not easy and that we are kind of not always going to get it right. And it’s part of that journey. Can you elaborate a little bit on why conversations are feeling so unsafe?
Katie:
Yeah, absolutely. And this is really interesting because the reason I arrived at this is a particular topic to focus my work on is that so naively when I kind of set up my own business five years ago, I thought, you know, we’re to have strategic conversations about inclusion, like this is going to be really focused. And every single time, and I mean every single time I got in a room with a group of senior leaders, we always ended up talking about Is it okay to say black? Why are there so many letters in LGBTQIA+ + But there was just, that was the level that people were like, we don’t know what we can and can’t say. We, you know, we, there’s no sheet you can download off the internet that just gives you the matrix of, know, this is when it’s okay. Now it’s become this. you know, there’s no, I often joke to say, it’s not like we go to bed at night and plug ourselves in and we get the next kind of
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
You know, human iOS update of all the correct terminology. Like it just doesn’t work that way. And especially when you are in a position where you’re, you know, you’re responsible for bringing groups of people together in a safe way. Like it could be really terrifying to think about, well, I don’t want to be the one that puts my foot in it. I don’t want to upset somebody or offend somebody, really drop a clang or an end up with a massive PR nightmare. don’t want to get canceled. Right. That’s the type of stuff that people have and for genuine reason because we have got that fear, that fear that comes from like, it’s a driven evolutionary trait, isn’t it? Like we want to be in with the in group. Nobody wants to be isolated. Like we are community animals. We fear social isolation. So the threat of not having your mates or having to fall out with people or you know, just being told you’re the person that got it wrong, you’re the person that offended everybody. Like, it makes your blood run cold, doesn’t it? It makes you feel sick in your stomach. Like we have a real physical reaction to it. And for good reason, because we’re supposed to get on. That’s how we stay safe. So from my perspective, that’s what we’re battling with. We’re battling with evolution. And definitely, if you are in a position of any form of privilege.
Esi:
Yeah
Katie:
It’s easier to stay quiet than it is to speak up because we don’t want to put our foot in it and we’re going to afford, going to, afforded the luxury to maybe not have to. And that’s what I think we need to change. We need to role model vulnerability and having courageous conversations in being open and honest and, creating spaces where we can all admit that we don’t know everything. We don’t have all the answers. And just because
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
In a space we’ve all agreed this is the accepted terminology. That’s only the case up until we have a new person join our group and they say, hang on, I don’t like that. And then you have to go through an iteration again. So it’s, it’s constantly evolving. So we need to make it okay that it’s not a case of, you know, it’s right or it’s wrong, it’s this or it’s that. We live in a world where we’ve got to be flexible. And I think that’s, that’s the most important thing. But my God, it’s like the messy middle gray area like nobody wants to be there it feels scary
Esi:
It’s really hard. Yeah, it really feels really good. I mean, it’s really hard, isn’t it? Because I mean, I’m thinking and I’m playing devil’s advocate a little bit because I find it hard to step away from my privilege in that way. So in this conversation, I think my privilege is the confidence and the empowerment I have just to say, I’m not sure. I don’t know. I’m really sorry if I get it wrong. Can you explain that to me?
Katie:
Go ahead.
Esi:
But what do we do? How do we support people to understand that it’s safe and it’s okay to say that? Because it’s, as you say, it’s really, you know, if I think of other ways I get embarrassed. It’s a really icky feeling, isn’t it? It makes, puts you on edge. It makes your whole body, for me, it makes my whole body sweat when I’m embarrassed.
Katie:
Yeah.
Esi:
It’s really, really horrible feeling. So how do we help people to know that it’s okay to be in that space? Or do they not have to be that, do they not have to be that uncomfortable?
Katie:
Think it depends, doesn’t it? It depends on the topic and it depends on who we’re speaking to and it depends on who we are speaking about, right? Because the safety, what we’re talking about here is psychological safety, This capacity that we have to speak up and that is purely contextual. It is dependent upon the people that we’re around. So who is it that I’m speaking to? How are they going to interpret what I say? And that changes.
How comfortable or not. in some contexts, like you and I have in a conversation, we’re going to have absolutely no problem going, God, I don’t know what that is. know, I’ve never heard of that before. Help me understand it. If I am a CEO of, let’s say like a mid-sized company, maybe 500 employees, and I am hearing on the news about the murder of George Floyd, and there is an expectation for me to make a statement.
I might, you know, if I’m, if I’m a white guy in my fifties, I’m like, I’m probably not going to know what the hell to say. And the stakes feel high. So it’s, it’s, it’s really contextual. And the only way to, one of the only ways to get over that is to practice. Is to spend some time sitting with, okay, so what are the things that I think I know? And where do I think those knowledge gaps are?
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
What are the experiences that I’ve had that mean I have, I hold the beliefs and thoughts that I do. And if I was somebody different to me, what would that be? And challenging ourselves to get out of our comfort zone and really think about, what’s it like for people who aren’t me? And how did that change my thinking? And that, it does require, you know, in some cases, massive amounts of vulnerability because it’s really difficult.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
isn’t it to think about the experiences you’ve not had? Like it’s hard to prove a negative. Tell me about all the experiences that you’ve never had, like really hard. So you have to go and find out from other people and that involves really awkward conversations or have potentially awkward conversations. But exposure therapy, isn’t it?
Esi:
Yeah, no, I agree. I guess it, so again, loads of things I take from that, because I was thinking myself while you were talking, I guess it is very situational as well. And it’s whether it’s appropriate or not, because it’s not always appropriate to see something and react to it. But when it is appropriate, how can we do it in an appropriate way? It’s not about thinking, well, I’m so privileged. I’m so glad that didn’t happen to me. It’s about thinking, okay, let me find a group. That is willing and comfortable to talk about it and let me be the person to listen so I am not guiding that conversation where I make assumptions about where it’s going to go. I am just sitting here to listen. And I think the important thing also is not to set up the group in reaction to something. So if we take the George Floyd experience, for example. It’s not, I’ve seen this happening now. I’m going to set up a group to talk about how black people feel in America. These groups should already exist. These places should already exist where there’s communities that are already talking and sharing and supporting that are there so that then they are authentic, not just a result of, now I realise that and this is what I’ve done about it.
Katie:
Yeah, absolutely. And, and to build on that as well, there is the point about who it is that you’re going to for your advice, right? Because there is a lot of information available to us as individuals, you know, podcasting like this, there will be, I don’t know, there must be thousands of episodes on all of the different topics that we can possibly think of. Like you can go and find yourself some podcasts and YouTube videos and educate yourself a little bit, some books, know, get on Google chat. GPT can probably answer some stuff for you. Like you can start to do your own homework and challenge your own thinking. And then when it comes to wanting to have a conversation, you have to think about, again, like you said, the context of the conversation, what is the power dynamic? Again, if I’m the same CEO, cis white man, mid fifties, I shouldn’t just walk up to any person in my organisation and just be like, you’re black, can we have a conversation? Because that would be massively inappropriate. And using your power, your position of power for your own interests and not thinking about the interests of the person that you’re approaching. But if that’s a conversation you want to have, think about, where is there a power dynamic that perhaps exists that isn’t inappropriate?
Esi:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie:
Where I can have that conversation where it would be consensual so that someone can speak to me on a level so that I am not putting them in a position of complete awkwardness. And a lot of that can be, there are groups and spaces set up for this where charities and education exist. So you can go off and you can pay someone to help educate you and they will be fully equipped to do that because they’re to it.
Esi:
Absolutely. So yes, and I agree and I think that it’s important that the work is done to understand whether. Why are you doing this in the first place? So am I doing this because I want to be seen to be doing the right thing or am I doing this because I really want to learn and increase my awareness and actually do better in the future? And that, the answer to that question and after you’ve thought, yes I do want to do this for the right reasons, so what are those reasons for me? Why and why and why? And after you’ve got to that that why, then that helps and informs where you go to find that information as well.
Katie:
Absolutely. it can often be that the first port of call on that might just be, I want to do the work because I’m curious. Right. And that’s okay, but then don’t involve other people in your work. Do it for yourself. Satisfy your own curiosity on your own time, having your own journey. And then be really mindful, right? Because this is something I think I did it and I see it play out a lot. And I didn’t know that I’d done it until I saw it play out.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
People and then I was like, I think I did that too. Which is when we learn things for the first time, we are hit with our own emotional response to that. So I remember just to continue the theme learning about anti-racism. And the shame that I experienced for having not really understood it was it felt overwhelming. And then that became anger towards how are we still not understanding this? Why aren’t we doing more? And I had this whole wave of emotions as a white person learning about racialisation. And I wanted to be really vocal about that. But what I also realised is that my outrage at all of this is not new for people that have been experiencing racism for hundreds of years, right? So me turning up all of a sudden with all my new knowledge and being outraged isn’t helpful because, you know and it’s almost like, thank you, welcome to the party. So also when you’re doing your own learning journey, don’t, you know, be aware of how that’s gonna land. And don’t be surprised if you show up with this new found information that other people might roll the rise a little bit because their experience of something that you’ve just learned about might be really different. And again, that comes back to the fear piece.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
But it’s just about knowing that going into it, there is your experience and then there is their experience. And that’s why that context is so important with how do we approach these conversations. Because just because it’s new for you doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been impacting someone for their entire life. And they may not feel so gracious about your newness.
Esi:
Yeah, yeah, and I’ve experienced that from the other side as well as a person of colour and there was a book that came out What white people don’t know about racism? think it was called or I’ll look up the name, but I think it was called what white people don’t understand about racism I put myself in the space of an advocate and an educator. You know, be patient about this because it’s not her fault that she Arguably it’s not her fault that she didn’t understand that before, but absolutely it’s not our responsibility as intersectional people to be patient all the time with everybody when they’re learning this for the first time. So I think that’s a really important message.
Katie:
Yeah. And, and, and I get, and, that does add to the fear then, doesn’t it? Because now people will be thinking, God, who do we talk to? But again, it’s like exactly as you’ve said, comes back to examine your own motives. Why are you doing this? And, and do sit with your own discomfort. Do sit with your own feelings, process your own feelings. ⁓ and if you want to have an outraged conversation, again, using this as an example, if you’re a white person, have it with another white person.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
You know.
Esi:
Yeah, and I would say as well, all have it with somebody that you really kind of trust and really understands where you’re coming from. So for the example that I drew upon a second ago with my mum, at the same time, I’m glad that she came to me and she was talking about that because it means that we have the relationship where she can do that. And I think that you’re absolutely right with kind of understanding that there needs to be an outlet.
Katie:
Thank you.
Esi:
But just making sure that the person that you’re doing that with is comfortable with that being them as well.
Katie:
Yeah, I guess we’re talking actually about consent, right? Make sure you have that personal consent.
Esi:
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it’s not always you know, yeah, yeah, I mean. I didn’t know how you feel about this, Katie, but perhaps it’s not always by saying, Can I talk to you about these feelings that I have, because things come out in the wash that you’re not expecting to say. But just being mindful whilst you’re having that conversation that that person is still comfortable with that, either by vocalising that, or by looking out for the body language and the signs that they’re giving off as well.
So I think that that leads us really well into kind of how we create a space for these conversations to happen. Because it’s not just like you what as you said before, it’s not just like we walk up to somebody on the street and say, Oh, can I talk to you about the oppressions you face in these areas? Do you meet this criteria? Oh, brilliant. Let’s now sit down for a chat. It’s about, you know, being in that appropriate space where people are willing to come to you.
Or they’re willing to have that conversation and creating that psychological safety. Can you kind of tell us what you think about that a little bit?
Katie:
Yeah, so and you’ve hit the nail on the head then the word psychological safety for me are kind of paramount, because it is about how do we feel in a space? Do we feel that it is safe for us? Well, A, is it safe to be in the space in the first place? And then once we’re there, is it safe for us to contribute to the conversation to ask questions?
To and then ultimately can I have an opposing opinion? Can I disagree? Can I say something that might be controversial? And that is in essence what psychological safety is. If all of those things can happen without the fear of something negative happening as a consequence of that. So then for me it’s about how are we paying attention to the spaces that we are responsible for creating. So are we looking at the dynamics within the groups that we’re in and are we doing all that we can to make sure multiple perspectives are welcome, people from all combinations of demographics don’t have barriers when it comes to feeling like they are included, when it comes to feeling that they’re safe. And how are we making sure that the conversations that can take place are honest, are vulnerable?
And I think, honestly, I’m true. Like, they are the real feelings of people. Often we can find in spaces, the person with the most seniority in a room says something, everybody just nods and goes, yes, yes, yes, Dave, yes, we’ll do that. Inside they go, no, this is a terrible idea. But no one’s gonna say that. So it’s about knowing that the conversation is happening is the legit conversation that is the benefit of everybody.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
And a lot of that then comes with, again, if you are the most senior or one of the most senior people in the room, how are you role modeling your vulnerability? and the behaviors and the engagement that you would like to see, so that it does signal to everybody else that that’s a safe space. And that’s quite challenging.
Esi:
Yeah, sorry. I guess for me as well, it’s about making sure that every part of that, those pieces and that psychological safety is taken care of. So for me as a disabled person, part of me feeling psychological safe in a room and feeling as though that I’m valued and can contribute in that space is having my access requirements, my physical access requirements, taken care of, because it might seem, oh, yeah, well, it doesn’t matter if you’re not comfortable, physically comfortable to speak your mind. But actually it does because if it comes across as though I haven’t been thought about in that room, in how I’m going to be comfortable physically. Then why am I ever going to feel safe to share anything. So it’s making sure that people’s physical access requirements are taken care of as well so that they know that they’ve been thought about, that they’re valued and their contribution therefore is going to be valued, at the end of the day as well.
Katie:
Absolutely. And I think that is just the perfect example, isn’t it? Because can you imagine if we all turned up to a meeting and the instruction was, I now want you to hold a squat for the next 45 minutes of this meeting? Like, no one could cope with that. It wouldn’t be okay. And
Esi:
Of course you’re going into a gym.
Katie:
Even then squat for 45 minutes. No, thank you
Esi:
Really? I’ll take your word for it, I’ve never actually tried.
Katie:
Yeah, but it is, it’s just one of those that if you’re not thinking about what it is you’re asking of people, yeah, people are just going to be like, what, what’s this? And it works both ways, right? Because it’s, it’s as a leader, if you are a leader, it is being able to role model the behaviors that you want. And then it is also if you are kind of a contributor, paying attention to the indicators that people are laying down for you.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
And if you’ve got a leader that is role modeling vulnerability and in his role modeling, kind of, you know, they are the type of person that step and say, do you know what, I don’t know about that. Would anyone else like to share their thoughts first? Like pick it up, pick up that signal that they’re inviting you to participate, like be someone who thinks, oh, okay, this is good. Let’s get involved because that’s how group dynamics change and shift as well. And I think there’s nothing more sad than maybe leaders trying to role model this and then they’re just met with more, you know, so it’s kind of, it can work both ways.
Esi:
Yeah, and I think for me, it’s about setting the scene as the leader before that that engagement. So it’s not about like being a horrible boss beforehand and then walking into a room and saying, you are safe. Tell us everything. You know, nobody’s going to believe you. So you have to actually be showing that all the way through every single interaction and the culture that you’re building in the first place. I used to work in an organisation and I’m not going to mention it, but if people look on my LinkedIn profile, we’ll see what is anyway. But I used to work in this organisation where the manager is exactly that the sorry, the CEO would do exactly that she’d say all these things in the meeting, but then outside the meeting, she would act in the complete opposite. And it doesn’t work. And she’d forever be saying, I don’t know why people don’t trust me. And it’s like, well, really, do you really know why people don’t know why people don’t trust you?
Katie:
Yeah.
Esi:
So understand what you are giving out before you ask these questions and ask this of other people as well.
Katie:
Absolutely, absolutely. And as a build on that, right, there is that thing where when you are building trust with people, don’t expect that they’re going to bring the big ticket item to you first, right? When you’ve just been, my door is always open. This is a psychologically safe space, right? No one’s going to come awesome. And they’re going to come in with all of their real problems. What’s going to happen is people are going to test the water.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
They’re going to drop in some small things just to see, how does this land? Handle those things well, and then you’re going to get the real challenge that they wanted to bring to you all along. So it is about not dismissing little things because the little things are what signal safety for the real things that you want to know about.
Esi:
Yeah, that is so true. I’ve got an image of a meme in my head. well, that’s not important. But what about the big stuff kind of thing? Yeah, absolutely. And expecting people to open up that way. Yeah, no, so true.Katie. And I think another thing to remember is that, as leaders we understand some of this language because we might be learning language around psychological safety and vulnerability and all of those things. But not the people that we’re talking to they wouldn’t necessarily know this language so speak in a language that is accessible to everybody. And I mean that in a physically like a disability accessible way but in a general way as well make sure how you’re talking is accessible to the people that you’re talking to as well.
So things like we’re creating psychological safety. If you never come across that before, then what’s that meant to mean? So explain what you mean. And also, and you understand even after kind of that first conversation where people are testing the waters, they may not know what the true problem is. I always say, you know, this, I don’t know how you feel about this, Katie. But with this kind of whole idea of bringing our whole selves to work, I actually think it’s bollocks.
Because we can’t bring our whole selves to work because how can we possibly know who that is? so when we are stuck on something when there’s when there’s a Psychological start stuckness that stops us from moving forward and being as open as we otherwise would want to be. We don’t always know what that is ourselves So even after as a leader This space has been created where people actually generally do feel comfortable to open up. They may not know what how to open up or what to talk about when they do.
Katie:
Yes and so I absolutely think that that is a critical point because I’ve worked with teams before where they’ve got this space, people do speak up and then they talk about reasonable adjustments and they’re just like you just need to tell us what you need and then we will make it happen for you and they mean it they genuinely will make things happen. But the challenge is if I’m someone who I’ve just kind of received an autism diagnosis and I’m trying to manage all of that and you’re saying well what do you need? I’m like I don’t know.
Esi:
You’re okay.
Katie:
Like this is all new for me too. So it’s also about being prepared to offer ideas or suggestions or just to help people. Well, okay, we don’t know what you need, but maybe we could do something like, you know. Well, maybe if you find the lights in the office and the open plan office a bit overwhelming, maybe we can make sure you always have the same place to sit. That’s kind of in a corner. That’s at least not quite so open as everywhere else. Should we try that? You know, it’s about bringing ideas when people themselves don’t know.
Esi:
Yeah, that’s so true and do not get me started on conversations around reasonable adjustments because it’s my favorite topic and I will go on for a day and a half. But even I completely agree with what you’re saying and just to add to that, it’s not just people who just acquired a disability that don’t know what they need. So I always say I’ve got a congenital disability, which is a disability from birth.
And I know what I need when I know what I’m doing. But if I don’t know what I’m doing or if it’s a new environment to me, I’ve no idea what I need. So I can hazard a guess that I’m always gonna need step-free access. I’m not gonna wake up one morning and be able to fly up a flight of stairs, but because I don’t know my new role, I don’t know what I need in that role. So it’s so important that these conversations are always collaborations. And bringing that back specifically to what we talk about today, psychological safety, understanding what we need to feel safe in a place, physically and otherwise.
This is why counseling exists. know, if we all knew the answers to what our barriers were, we didn’t need counseling in the first place. So if we need to, if people, including myself, need to spend this money on counseling, then of course they’re not going to know what’s stopping them from moving to the next stage in the workplace. So it’s all about kind of that gentle encouragement, those conversations, there’s evidence that actually it’s safe to do this and try and if it doesn’t work, try something else. And share., in certain environments and not share in other environments as well.
Katie:
Absolutely. to tack on the bit about the difficult conversation piece. Some of these conversations, if you’ve never had them before, could feel massively awkward, right? So then it’s about thinking, you’re allowed to say that, you’re allowed to say, this is the first time we’ve had a conversation about accessibility requirements. Is it okay for me to ask you, know, are you able to use stairs?
Esi:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Katie:
You know, it’s, it’s kind of, it’s okay to ask a question and to say, I’ve never had this comment, like set, set the scene for yourself. I’ve never had a conversation like this before, if you haven’t position it, because we talk a lot about intention and impact, don’t we? If you can be explicit to someone and set your intention out loud, rather than, know, it, and I don’t share it with you, set it out loud and say. My intention here is I don’t want to upset you. I’ve never had this comment of a conversation before. If I can I ask you some questions and you guide me and let me know if that’s okay or not, you know.
Esi:
Yeah, absolutely, completely, completely. I think it’s all in these conversations specifically around kind of adjustments. It’s always important that the line manager or the leader is taking responsibility, but also enabling that collaboration to happen. So it’s not about making assumptions or leading in a general way, but at the same time, they need to show that they are taking responsibility for the next steps of this as well, I think.
Because it’s not the disabled employee or the employee’s responsibility to make the workplace work for them. It’s their responsibility to do their role. And it’s the workplace’s responsibility to make that possible. That was me on my soapbox for three seconds. we also today.
Katie:
Loved it. I’m here for it.
Esi:
I get on them quite often, Katie. They’re getting more and more as I get older. So we also today would like to talk about lived experience. So in every episode, I talk about my lived experience of being a disabled person. And we talked before about whether you’d be comfortable to share yours and how that kind of impacts the work that you do today. Would you mind sharing your point of view of that?
Katie:
So yeah, my lived experience is one that I, obviously we all have a lived experience of being alive, right? We’re humans, that’s how it works.
Esi:
I always thought that, it was only for specific people actually.
Katie:
If you’ve got a protected characteristic, then you’ve got a lived experience, everybody else it’s a no.
Esi:
But if you don’t, then you don’t. Yeah, exactly.
Katie:
You have no experience.
Esi:
Hehehehehe
Katie:
Okay, right. But my particular lived experience is being a queer person. And I caveat that with I know the word queer isn’t something that everybody enjoys. I enjoy to use it for myself. And that is why I’m using it. If you are also part of the LGBTQIA + spectrum, and you don’t like that word, then I apologise to you. But I feel comfortable with it. And it’s my lived experience. So I’m just a bit nervous. Yeah.
Esi:
Okay, enough. Can I just come and let, sorry I know you’re gonna that’s your lived experience but you know it’s the same with all identities. There are ways in which people identify with themselves. So I call myself a disabled person. I know that some people are mortally offended by that. Because they would call themselves a person with a disability but it’s about my identity and how I identify and what empowers me in the language.
Katie:
100 % and that’s I think is really important. Again, it comes back to that old people always have the need, don’t they? Like, I don’t want to get it right or wrong. they’re really worried and it’s contextual. It’s just about what people want. And I’m cool with calling myself queer, but my advice to everybody is if you’re not part of the community and you’re not using it about yourself, don’t use it. You say LGBTQIA +, because you are much less likely to upset somebody. But you know, it’s fine if people need it about me.
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
But I am a queer person. And particularly I’m the A in the spectrum of LGBTQIA+. So I’m asexual. And it’s one of those things that nobody knows about. Like we are the tail walker of the community, just lolling about at the back with nobody really understanding. And all it means is when you think about the spectrum of sexual orientation within there, we are the group of people who…
Esi:
I agree, yeah.
Katie:
Generally, do not or experience little sexual attraction. So it’s just not something that shows up for us. So it’s not about being attracted to men or women or both, it’s neither. There is no gender that exists that is attractive to me from a sexual perspective. And it’s infrequently spoken about. We are not educated, I think.
Esi:
Okay.
Katie:
adequately when it comes to sexual orientation. So I think there’s probably way more ace people and ace is just the shortened version, way more ace people than I think we know about because we live in a society where we’re all socialized that sex is just a thing that people, that adults have and do and we should all be wanting it.
And actually that’s not the same experience. So for me, it’s been quite an interesting journey in learning not only about my own sexual orientation, but then also not feeling welcome in the LGBTQIA + space because there is also the whole, I’m queer, but I’m not queer enough. So it’s such an interesting thing.
Esi:
Yeah, it comes, you know, just from what you’re saying it makes me think it comes right at the end of the of the identity and Also when it comes to media, it’s something that’s never covered in media So, know, ironically sex is you know, it’s not a sexy topic when it comes to media and and films and everything like that So it’s really not as you say, it’s really not something that anyone kind of I suppose thinks about a lot. How does that impact or does it impact in the work that you do or in your in your in the life that you have with your friends and your.
Katie:
Work, do use it and I do talk about it because I think it’s important part when we’re having conversations about LGBTQIA +, that we understand you’re talking about a gender spectrum and you’re talking about a spectrum of sexual orientation. And if we’re not talking about all aspects, and one thing I like to say is when we’re so busy talking about all the ways in which people are attracted to each other, there is a whole group of people that are not attracted to each other.
Katie:
And that’s literally 50 % of the conversation and we’re not talking about it. So it’s so interesting. And I think personally, if we spent more time talking about asexuality, a lot of people would probably understand their relationships and own attractions better. Because when we stop talking about sexual attraction and we start talking about emotional attraction,
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
And kind of the other ways in which we connect with each other as humans and form relationships. For a lot of people, sex isn’t the first thing. It kind of comes down the line. And when you are having conversations about asexuality, those things become a bit more present because you have to unpick what’s going on for you as a human. So for me, I find it, I think it’s super interesting. I would, I’m biased, right?
Esi:
Okay.
Katie:
But I just think it’s fascinating and I wish we would talk about it more. And it’s getting better. You said there about the media, it is getting better. There are a few ace characters now that pop up in usually in very specific shows like Heartstopper, which is about It’s wonderful. And programs like Sex Education with Gillian Anderson, like that was fantastic. And that there are some minor characters, which is good.
But yeah, I think it needs more visibility, but it definitely does bring a different angle to having conversations. And again, yeah, it’s nice then to be able to talk about feeling safe in a community. Well, I’m supposed to be part of the LGBTQIA + community, my letters there, but I get abuse. I’ve had lots of online abuse when I start talking about intersection, asexual awareness, I get abuse from people saying, you’re not really, you you’re not really an oppressed demographic. Why do you need awareness? And it’s like,
Esi:
It really is.
Katie:
Yeah, for that reason, for everything you’ve just said. Yeah
Esi:
Wow! Yeah, ironically, yeah. Wow! It’s interesting when it comes to disability, I don’t know so much anymore, but definitely when I was growing up, asexuality and disability were kind of synonymous with each other. So if you’re disabled, then obviously you’re asexual. And so in the community, especially around the 90s and 2000s, it was very taboo because of the assumptions that came with being disabled.
And that was really, really difficult. I think I mean, I can only talk from my experience. I’m not talking from other disabled people’s experiences at all, obviously. But I think for me, that that’s why it’s been quite a taboo subject to talk about or to even think about really, because it’s like, no, I’m not that because just because I’m disabled, you can’t make that assumption about me, which makes it into this kind of really almost a dirty word in that way.
Katie:
Completely, yeah. And it’s interesting because we’re kind of confusing, aren’t we then, the assumption of somebody being non-sexual with them having the sexual orientation of being asexual. And it’s one of those things where there will be disabled people who are asexual because we are all representative of all of the aspects of society, right?
Esi:
Yeah. with people.
Katie:
And there will also be disabled people who will definitely want to be sexually active and will experience sexual attraction and probably a majority of disabled people because the majority of the UK, well, the general population is experiencing life that way. And then it’s just a matter of how that gets followed up on. But the attraction, like the sexual orientation piece is so different to a person’s
Esi:
Yeah.
Katie:
Capacity or willingness to want to engage in sex and those two things are different and I think that’s really important.
Esi:
Absolute 100 % there’s a charity in London called ParaPride I if you’ve come across it Katie have you. They’re brilliant I would I would definitely recommend them and I was a trustee and so that ParaPride is a LGBTQ + disabled persons charity and it It sits in the intersection of the two identities and the charity exists to empower and educate people
Katie:
I haven’t, no. I’m to make a note.
Esi:
On those two identities. And especially how they intersect with each other and they do a lot of work on sex positivity when it comes to assumptions made about disabled people and people in the LGBTQ + IA space. So it’s, you know, they’re really interesting charity. I recommend kind of having a look at them.
Katie:
I definitely will.
Esi:
Yeah, yeah, cool. And anyway, so sorry, back to you. That was just a little side note on to ParaPride They’re very good.
Katie:
Is beautiful, it’s interesting.
Esi:
So going back to what we were saying before, we’re kind of talking about how orientation and identity and identities in general intersect with each other and how that can show up in the workplace. So that can be a really difficult thing to navigate for leaders and people having those conversations in the workplace. So when we’re thinking specifically about kind of leaders in the EDI space, do you think it’s appropriate to navigate those conversations if it is not or if so, what do we do?
To help people to navigate that kind of conversation? And what really, I suppose, do we need to know? And what don’t we need to know when it comes to it in the workplace?
Katie:
Amazing sequence of questions there, guess beginning, it’s good. It’s Interestingly enough, so the first question is one that rings true is like, is that a conversation that we should be navigating? And I think the answer, as with most things is yes and no, because it all depends on the why, doesn’t it? Right? Why do we need to know that information? Why is it important to have a conversation about it? Why
Esi:
Sorry, that was a lot in one, wasn’t it?
Katie:
And if the answer is, because as leaders, we want to make sure that we are supporting our employees as best we can. And in order to do that, we need to understand our employees’ experiences generally, and then specifically within our workplace, then that feels like, okay, well, that’s a conversation you want to start navigating. If the conversation is, I’m just feeling curious and I’m nosy, then rewind. This podcast back to the beginning and re-listen because actually we’re going back to that point of, well, if we don’t have a legitimate reason to want to be prying into people’s lives about their own experiences, then we really shouldn’t be. We should be, you know, leaving people to just be people. But if, you know, when we are satisfied that actually, this is a conversation we need to be having, then it’s about how are you bringing the voices, you know, all voices.
Esi:
Okay.
Katie:
How are you amplifying that and making those voices louder so that you can really understand what are people’s perspectives. And something that I see time and time again, and this is generally within workplaces, this isn’t just specifically for identity characteristics. But we ask that we’re really good in organisations asking for feedback and then doing nothing with it, right? So if you are going to ask people,
Esi:
So true.
Katie:
To tell you about their own personal experiences, to share information like that. Please make sure you are prepared and willing to do something with it, to change something as a result, to use it for a purpose and that purpose being the thing you told them you were going to use it for. Because there’s nothing more deflating than being asked to share your experiences of what’s it like, know, what’s it like to be a woman in this male dominated environment? What’s it like to be, the only disabled person in our organisation. You don’t want to start having that conversation and then for it to go nowhere because you’re like, well, great, what was the point in that? It’s almost like, you’re just going to put my photo on the website so you look like you represent people, but you don’t really care. So it’s be armed with knowing why you’re doing something and being really honest and transparent about that. Yeah.
Esi:
Yeah, and you know what I think this is how it builds, you know, it’s done properly, it becomes the systemic culture of the organisation, because that’s not a five minute job, right? Nor should it be. So if it’s done properly, it’s going to take years because first of all, you need to build that culture where people feel safe to know that when they answer, it’s going to be a very good reason. You need to build that conversation around why are we asking these questions? Actually, why is this important?
Into us as a business and how is it going to feed our values and our intentions and what are going to do with this? All of those things, as you say, it’s going to take time. So if it’s done properly, it really feeds into the wider purpose of the business for years to come as well.
Katie:
Absolutely. And also know that when you are asking for people to be honest, you will hear things that are useful. You will hear things that you will not know and you’ll like, wow, we didn’t know that. We can definitely do something about that. And you will also hear things that you’re going to wish you didn’t know. You will have people that will tell you truth, right?
Esi:
Okay.
Katie:
When, people do feel safe, they will tell you the truth. And those are the people that you don’t want to be like selective about. we wanted this stuff. We didn’t want that stuff. When you’re asking for feedback, you’re going to get all of it and you have to be responsible for, yeah, you’re taking accountability for all of it, listening to all of it and deciding how, what you’re going to do with all of it. Even if one of the answers could be something gets raised that is, okay,
We didn’t foresee that. We don’t have a way of doing anything about that yet. But thank you for telling us. Even if that’s kind of your response to say, we hear you, we’ve asked you for this, we hear you, this is probably gonna take more resource than we’ve got. This is gonna take more thinking, more attention than we’ve got currently. But thank you for telling us. Don’t just leave people hanging. Don’t cherry pick your information.
Esi:
Yeah and with that it’s also you know just following on from that it’s about understanding, what kind of authority you have to do something about it. So you’re, but if you’re a team leader, you may not be able to change the policy kind of thing.
Katie:
Yeah, absolutely. what scope of you scope of influence, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Esi:
Thank you. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, yeah, it’s about kind of understanding what scope of influence to use Katie’s words that you have over this completely. Because if you are, let’s say, in an HR role, but this is something to do with procurement, and you’re saying, yes, we’ll fix this overnight, then you’re setting false expectations for the person. So it’s understanding what you can do what you can influence, and what you can signpost and tell other people about as well.
Katie:
Absolutely. And also not expecting perfection, right? You’re not going to get it right the first time you try something. aren’t going to launch an inclusion survey or some listening circles, get pristine and helpful information back that you will then be able to turn into a tangible, measurable solution coming out the other side. It doesn’t work that way. You are looking for progress. You are looking for steps that take you forwards.
Esi:
Yeah, that is disappointing. As a perfectionist, that is the most disappointing thing I’ve heard all year. No joking. It’s tongue in cheek. Absolutely. You know, we always have to remember this is a journey. Every time we ask a question and ask for feedback and listen, we are evolving, but nothing is as Katie said, nothing’s going to change overnight. And we have to move at the pace that we can move at.
Katie:
Hahaha!
Esi:
And not be impatient, also to help other people understand that this is moving at the pace it needs to as well. Because if you think everything is going to change overnight, first of all, you’re to be disappointed. And second of all, it will never be done properly, it’ll just be done quickly.
Katie:
Yes, yes exactly.
Esi:
And so moving on to the last section of today, I want to talk about what people can take away and what they can actually action. There’s been so much stuff that people can take away and implement, I think, as a result of what we’ve talked about today. But if you were to say to leaders what the one thing they can do in the next, I don’t know, year to kind of have these courageous conversations to create, to start to build this environment where people feel confident to be a bit more open, what would you say?
Katie:
I would say begin at your beginning. And for most of us, our beginning is be honest with yourself about your own frame of reference. So really think about what are your own lived experiences? Like what is your, what’s your me state of play? What, what are your beliefs, your values, your experiences and how do they shape who you are and how you see the world and kind of, and, get comfortable in understanding that about yourself. Because then that is the building block that you will use to then understand, what are my biases? What am I missing? What else is going on? You you build from that point, but you have to know where you’re starting from. And you have to be honest with yourself. You have to say, actually, I know nothing. I know nothing about LGBTQIA +, rights or experience. I know nothing. And that’s okay, but just acknowledge it to yourself.
Esi:
Brilliant, thank you. Is there anything else you would like to share? In a minute, I’m gonna ask you how you would like to kind of, how people can get in touch with you. Is there anything else you’d like to share about our conversation?
Katie:
I would say don’t underestimate the importance of being able to have difficult conversations because even though this particular conversation has been about identity and the icky equality stuff that people often, because when we talk about people and with people that has higher stakes, but just don’t underestimate the importance that if you can get confident step by step having these conversations.
All of your conversations will be better. All of your personal relationships will be better. It won’t just be your working culture. It will be the conversations you have with your partner and your siblings and your parent. Like everything gets better when you get better at having difficult conversations. And, you know, when you, then you, you know, you think about boundaries in a different way. You think about consent and literally everything changes when you learn the art of having a difficult conversation.
Esi:
Safe trade.
Katie:
So yeah, start.
Esi:
Awesome, thank you very much. Now I like to ask all my guests who their favourite influences are. So this can either be maybe a content creator or books that you read or anything else. I mean obviously you’re going to say me but you know after me, who else
Katie:
Obviously, Esi, for sure. I know, I mean, of course. Personally, I am a huge, huge fan of someone called Deborah Francis White. So she is actually a comedian. She’s Australian, but she lives in the UK now. And for many, many years, she has been the host of a podcast called The Guilty Feminist.
Esi:
Thanks Katie, you’re so kind.
Katie:
It’s brilliant. It is a stand up comedy focused podcast that tackles issues of inequality. So for me, it ticks all my boxes. And she has been an absolute legend when it comes at just connecting people with from different backgrounds and having these types of conversations. And it has been an absolute inspiration and influence on everything that I do. So that is probably the biggest influence. And then there are also God, so many other people who maybe are just regular folk on the internet doing stuff. So Katie Neaves, who is a transgender awareness speaker, she’s amazing. Yeah, just love, love, love. People like Nova Reid, who talks about inequality a lot and anti-racism. It’s just there’s so many, are, honestly, there are so many people I could talk about, a lot of people. Most of them I’ve had on my podcast as well.
Esi:
So we’ll put the link to your podcast in the show notes, but also I want you to share what your podcast is and how people can listen to it and watch it.
Katie:
Yep. it’s “The Speaking Of Inclusion” podcast. It’s available on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and I have a YouTube channel that streams the video versions of it as well. and yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a very simple, they usually run to an hour long, podcast of just different people talking about different stuff.
Esi:
Cool, excellent. Thank you very much. And where can people find you and get in touch with you?
Katie:
Well, what I lack in creativity by calling myself Katie Consulting, so my website is katieallenconsulting.com I make up for in fantastic content and expertise, which is what you will find on my website and also on my LinkedIn where you can find me as well as Katie Allen. So just search by your name, you will find me. I’ve also got a TEDx talk out there as well that you can go and watch too.
Esi:
Jealous. So I think people underestimate the value of using their own name for their business. don’t think it lacks creativity at all. think, you know, it’s just an ingenious idea. I am just on a side note. In 2020, I was like, Oh my God, you know, when we went into lockdown, what am going to do? You know, we need to pivot. So I thought, build up community, called it the Disability Inclusion Community. And my friend said, you do realise that the acronym is DIC I was like oh oh no. So actually I think you know the simpler the better sometimes because you can get yourself into trouble otherwise.
Katie:
Yep. Perfect, perfect anecdote there. I love that so much. For me, it was just like, well, this is my name. I can’t think of anything else and nobody can trademark it against me.
Esi:
I really it. I really recommend checking Katie’s website out and contacting her. Katie also has a link tree which has got loads of really really useful stuff as well. And check that podcast out. You can go straight to my episode but also other people are on there too.
Katie:
Highly recommend listening to that one first.
Esi:
But not I’m joking all the episodes are brilliant. Thank you so much Katie for coming along and talking to me this afternoon. Thank you very much everybody for tuning in to another episode of the Equality Edit and we look forward to seeing you or hearing you next time. Bye.