Episode Summary
Constantly adapting to environments, expectations and systems that weren’t designed with you in mind can come at a cost. Esi and Sarah explore adaptation fatigue, resilience and why meaningful inclusion means changing environments rather than fixing people.
Transcript
Sarah (00:00)
I think firstly, my advice would be just be kind to yourself. Because you know, those of us that work in this space, it’s hard work. It takes an emotional toll on us, especially given some of the challenges around the way the EDI landscape has changed in the past 18 months. It’s getting harder. The work
Esi (00:19)
Yeah.
Sarah (00:20)
is still vital.
But it’s getting harder. So I would say firstly, you know, give yourself a break. Make sure you look after yourself. You know, coming back to adaptation, how many of we had to adapt the way we work as EDI professionals given the current political and social climate? So yeah, give yourself a break.
I think also that as much as obviously, you know, being an EDI practitioner was about changing systems, policies, processes. I think sometimes we can forget that we’re talking about individual lives here. We forget what I phrase the humanity behind the headlines. So, yes, you need to look at statistics for how many disabled people have you got in your company and what
proportion have this disability, that disability. That’s that’s that’s good. You need those statistics, that data, but don’t forget you’re talking about people. So when it comes to changing a policy, developing something new, make sure you’re consulting with your employee resource groups or your staff networks to get the feedback, to get the input from people that that’s really going to impact.
Esi (01:39)
Hello everyone. Thank you very much again for joining us for yet another episode of the Equality Edit. I can’t actually believe we’ve recorded so many episodes and we’ve got this many viewers. I’m really pleased. And the more I record these episodes, the more I’m enjoying myself. So thanks very much for coming along on this journey with us.
Today I’m joined by my colleague Sarah Stevenson, and I’m going to let her talk more about what she does in a moment. She runs a company called See Things Differently. So we met a couple of times, and Sarah’s reminding me the other day.
at a ParaPride event. So ParaPride is a charity that works with the intersection of disabled people and LGBTQ people. And actually, we had Daniele on the podcast not too long ago. So if you would like to listen to another podcast, obviously after this one, go back and listen to Daniele Lul’s podcast as well. But for now, I’m going to hand over to Sarah to tell us a little bit about herself. So hi Sarah.
Sarah (02:41)
Hi Esi, thank you so much for having me on the Equality Edit. It’s such a great, such a great project, project, and I’m really pleased to be here. So yeah, my name is Sarah Stevenson. My pronouns are she, her. I’m totally blind, trans woman, and I do work under the banner of Seeing Things Differently, which is all about that feeling of when nothing’s wrong, but something doesn’t quite feel right. So it’s helping people deal with issues around
Identity, voice, be that in the workplace, be that in the family, and I do that through speaking, coaching, writing. So that’s that’s me.
Esi (03:15)
The other day when we were talking about what we were gonna discuss in this conversation, I really, really loved the tagline that you have kind of coined as you just said, when nothing is wrong, but something doesn’t feel right. It really kind of encompasses so much for us as marginalized communities and th those who sit in intersections as well.
I want to return to that in a little bit, but I want to ask you a couple more questions on other things first. Can you just tell us about why equality is so important to you and how you came into the equality space?
Sarah (03:51)
Why is equality important? I mean it seems strange in one way that we even have a podcast asking that question, but
Esi (03:59)
Yeah.
Sarah (04:00)
but I think even more so now it is a really important question. Why is equality important? For me, equality isn’t just some abstract concept, you know, discussions around language and pronouns. I mean, that’s important. But equality for me.
It’s about my everyday life. As I’ve said, I’m out as somebody who’s terribly blind. I’ve I I’ve always been trans when I came out in 2013, so I lived my life with this intersection of being trans, being disabled. Une quality for me is about how I interact with the world around me. And sadly, we don’t live in an equal world. you know, if you are a member of a marginalized group.
There are still issues of prejudice, discrimination, hatred, there are problems, and even even not as extreme as you know some of the real nasty horrible stuff, just on a day-to-day basis. There are people that still aren’t aware of the issues that impact disabled people, LGBTQ
Esi (04:53)
Mm, ooh.
Sarah (04:54)
people, people from marginal communities. So equality for me is it’s about the everyday reality of people
Esi (05:01)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (05:01)
like.
Myself, yourself, others watching and listening to this. It’s about how we interact with the world. So, how did I get into it?
Classic, I’ve stumbled into being a professional disabled person. I think lots of us as disabled people do this because the job market’s
Esi (05:15)
Yeah.
Sarah (05:15)
so tough. But basically, I my first job was for the R and IB, the charity that works for blind people. And then after that, I’ve worked in higher education for about 20 years, firstly supporting disabled students.
And then more latterly, I spent six years at the University of Oxford helping disabled staff and LGBT staff. And again, although there were some real challenges there, you know, and working for somewhere like Oxford, it was still about the everyday reality. So
Esi (05:44)
Hmm.
Sarah (05:45)
equality isn’t just an abstract concept for me, be that in my personal life or work, it’s about that lived reality and how can we break down those barriers for people.
that basically don’t don’t fit the so called norm.
Esi (05:58)
Mm-hmm. I so there’s so much in there that I love. It’s interesting that you say, you know, you’re a professional disabled person. That’s exactly how I refer to myself as well. So that’s really funny. but it
Sarah (06:09)
Yeah.
Esi (06:10)
kind of encompasses it all, doesn’t it? I think you know, it’s interesting talking to people on this podcast. I don’t think there’s anyone when because I ask a few questions at the same. And this is one of the questions I ask. So why is equality important to you and how did you get in the space?
and or I I can’t think of one occasion where people haven’t used a lived experience as not use the lived experience is the reason that’s the wrong way of saying it, but hasn’t had lived experience as their main kind of driver for it. which I think is quite, you know, it’s quite it’s nice as well because it’s nice that equality conversations are driven by people that have the lived experience, but also it’s sad because it’s saying
Sarah (06:51)
No.
Esi (06:52)
that.
It’s us that needs to change the world for ourselves.
Sarah (06:55)
No, I completely agree. I mean, without doing ourselves out of a job. Esi, I think, you know, if we didn’t have to do this work and we could just live our lives with a you know, equal rights, dignity, respect, then that’d be great, but we’re not we’re
Esi (07:08)
Yeah.
Sarah (07:09)
not there yet.
Esi (07:10)
Yeah. Do you think we’re ever gonna be there? No. No. No Yeah, sorry, Carol.
Sarah (07:13)
No. I think
things things have improved in some areas, things have got worse in other areas. I think things are changing, but I think there will always be a place for you know people like us who have this lived experience to be the ones that are able to say to people, actually it’s great you’ve done that, but what about that? Because
Esi (07:36)
Yeah.
Sarah (07:36)
you know.
No but e even you know the two of us on this podcast, we’re both disabled, we have different disabilities. But even if you put a group of blind people in a room together, a group of wheelchair users in a room together, group of gay people in a room together, we’ll have some shared experiences, but we’ll have some difference as well. And
Esi (07:52)
Totally, totally.
Sarah (07:53)
you can never fully step inside someone else’s shoes. I think there will always be that place for lived experience. You know, what’s the phrase, nothing about us without us?
Esi (08:03)
Yeah. Yep. No, absolutely completely agree. And in that way it’s a it’s again turning it back to a positive because it means that people are always striving for learning new things as well. I also think that you’re absolutely right with you know, we are in a community where we are fighting for equality and for us we live and breathe equality, but there are so many people in the wider world that just don’t understand the basics.
So when Celebrating Disability started, you know, I would talk about kind of what I would call as the basics, but it’s only the basics if you know what they are, you know, you know, whether to use the terminology disabled person or person with a disability, you know, a ramp isn’t the be all and end all for accessibility. Yes, a ramp is very important for some disabled people, but even for those disabled people that need a ramp,
That’s not all you need to do. You need to do so much more, which I know we’re going to talk about later, and so on and so forth. But now the conversations that I have have moved on. because Celebrating Disability has developed and therefore our audience has developed as well. So the people I work with are more the further along the journey of disability inclusion. But it doesn’t mean those conversations are not still happening, so
Sarah (09:17)
Okay.
Esi (09:18)
they’re happening somewhere else in the space.
And I I sometimes have like a real and it’s still kind of it’s a jerk back into reality when I speak to somebody and then they said, Well, no, we haven’t thought about accessibility. Why should we worry about disabled people? It’s like, yes, there’s a there’s a wider world out there that still don’t understand where we’re coming from.
Sarah (09:37)
Yeah, absolutely.
Esi (09:38)
If you were who you were now and your younger self was sitting right next to you.
What would you tell them at the very beginning of their career that you wish you knew at the time?
Sarah (09:48)
Wow, oof
Yeah, that’s really interesting because in my career I’ve also, you know, undergone gender transition as well. So my my beginning of my career, that would be somebody scared about that. So but I would say to them, be brave, be authentic, and be courageous. Three things. And I
Esi (10:07)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (10:07)
would say, yeah, it’s gonna be tough. Yeah, you’re gonna live in a world where there’ll be some.
Victories, there’ll be some, you know, there’ll be some challenges, but at the end of the day, being your authentic self is the most positive contribution you can make to the world around you. One of the phrases I often use is our existence is our resistance.
Esi (10:28)
Okay.
Sarah (10:29)
Because, you know, certainly as a trans person, I live in a world at the minute where there were certain sections of the of society that would see me not exist.
And yes,
Esi (10:38)
Mm.
Sarah (10:38)
it’s the same with disabled people, same for BME people, everybody. I think our biggest act of rebellion and and resistance is just being our authentic selves. So I’d s I would say to myself, yeah, be yourself.
Esi (10:52)
I really like that for for lots of reasons because I think, you know, for a younger self to to hear that I think that’s really important. and I think it’s hard, you know, to kind of take that in when you are a young person as well. But I love that. So so I’m I engage in a lot of conversations around activism at the moment.
Sarah (11:10)
Mm.
Esi (11:11)
and, you know, it’s quite a prevalent topic at the moment, as it should be all the time, but but because of what’s going on in the world at the moment as well.
and I think the conversations, a lot of them are about how do we activate and protest while still remaining self, still remaining safe, sorry. And I think what you’ve just said about kind of being your own authentic self is is helping to reshape what activism means and what it looks like. because when we think of the word activism, obviously we think about the things that have happened in the past.
people protesting, marching for our rights, which has all been really important. None of us would be here today without it. But the world is changing and I think we really need to start considering what else activism looks like. And I think one of those things, as you just said, is is being your authentic self. And that’s the strongest way to show actually, no, I’m not gonna fit into your little box. No, I’m not gonna do what you tell me to.
Sarah (12:05)
Mm.
Esi (12:06)
So let us talk. I mean, I love this. So so when you spoke to me the other day and we were talking about our conversations, when you said this tagline, I thought, God, I wish I’d thought of it myself. I love it. So so kind of I have some ideas about what it means to me, but let’s unpack this when nothing is wrong but something doesn’t feel right. What is that?
Sarah (12:28)
So for me, that’s about the experience of you know, you’re somebody, you’re in work, you’ve got an okay job, it’s not horrible, it might not be quite your dream job, but it’s you know, it’s okay, you’re in work, and and again, you know, as disabled people we don’t take for granted being in work, but you’ve got a job, you get an okay, you’re trusted, you’re respected, you’ve got good colleagues. So on the outside, everything looks like it’s going
fine. You’ve got nothing really to complain about. But you have this feeling inside, in your soul, in your being, that yeah, but something’s not quite right.
Esi (13:03)
Mm.
Sarah (13:03)
And I think firstly, that’s a feeling that many of us have, but it doesn’t get talked about, or or you know, we don’t have the language for it. Secondly, I think we live in a world and workplaces where if you do have that feeling.
It’s like, well, there must be something wrong with me. You know, I need to do some more, I don’t know, mindfulness or productivity course, or and and they’re they’re fine. But I think this for me is about firstly noticing that feeling, giving it space, and just thinking, right, what is going on? And it could be that something in your world has changed, be in your family, it could be in your health, it could be.
You know, because of your, you know, my guess, gender identity, it could be anything that something has changed within your world. And although you’re not at burnout, you’re not a crisis, you just don’t quite feel like you inhabit that space of work,
Esi (13:54)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (13:55)
of society in the same way. So that’s that’s that’s what it’s about for me.
Esi (14:00)
Mm-hmm. It’s that’s really interesting. And I think, you know, just as you were talking there, you know, it is about so for me at the moment, it’s about perimenopause. And actually
Sarah (14:10)
Uh-huh.
Esi (14:11)
last night I was talking to a friend, and she was saying how she was really struggling. and I said, you know what, I think it’s perimenopause because it’s
Sarah (14:19)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (14:20)
almost when you’ve gone through it, you can see the signs of it in others.
without making assumptions and assessments. You know, I’m not a doctor. I’m not
Sarah (14:26)
Yeah.
Esi (14:27)
not kind of trying to give her a diagnosis, but you know, I was using my lived experience. but it’s that thing, you know, I don’t know why I’m angry. I don’t know why I am crying all the time. I don’t I’m not sad. I’m not actually that mad. I just can’t help yell at you kind of thing. And so that that for me is a really prevalent thing. And the other thing I was thinking about when you were talking
I watch and listen to a lot of true crime. You know, it’s my guilty pleasure, true crime.
And I always listen on podcasts.
And so many of them are, you know, the victim saying, I felt that something was wrong, but I I thought it would be okay. And so it’s that not trusting yourself. And no, you know, that really reminded me of what you were saying, knowing that that actually this isn’t right, and and being able to trust yourself to think, okay.
I need some help. I need to try and find a, well not try and find a solution, but I need to reach out to somebody. I need to investigate this more for myself. And it might be that that and now coming away from true crime. It might
Sarah (15:31)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (15:31)
be that that investigation leads to actually it’s not me at all. It’s the environment. But it all so I’m gonna talk to my line manager about what is wrong
Sarah (15:38)
Right.
Esi (15:39)
with this environment. Or it might be actually I, you know, I’m discovering this new thing about myself.
that I want to investigate more. I want to join a new community to find out a bit more about what this means to me.
Sarah (15:51)
No, I think absolutely,
I think I think as you said, that that that that feeling of stopping to notice what’s going on is really important. Because we are very quick, you know, we live in a world and look, I love self-help, but a lot that’s about ten ways to fix this and fix that, and they can work. I I love some of those books. But I think, you know, before you can start to address what might be happening, you need to stop.
And take some time and to just you know how does this feel what what might be going on? What what might be going on? And as you say, it could be something in your environment, it could be something that’s changed at work, could be the menopause, could be anything that’s going on, and you know, obviously, if it’s something medical, psychological, then you know, totally seek help and seek support for that. But sometimes it’s that feeling is a lot more subtle than.
It’s just a
Esi (16:39)
Mm.
Sarah (16:40)
something has shifted
Esi (16:42)
Mm.
Sarah (16:42)
and again I think we’re very quick to try and rush to try and fix things when sometimes things aren’t there to be fixed, they’re there to be noticed and work out what’s going on.
Esi (16:53)
Hmm. So it’s also about kind of being kind to yourself, really, isn’t it? And giving yourself kind of that grace period. Because I mean I know that that when we started this section, you kind of said, I need to be more, you know, people might think about themselves, I need to be more resilient, I need to just be better, just focus. And I say that to myself, focus, Esi be more productive. And then I think, well, actually, why am I not focusing in the way that I feel I should? And should I actually be focusing in that way anyway?
Is that not telling me something? So I think a big message for me in this is kind of be kind to yourself as well, be a friend to yourself.
Sarah (17:29)
Absolutely. I mean, one of the other things that I think is deeply related to this is the whole issue of adaptation fatigue. And I
Esi (17:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah (17:37)
think for those of us from marginal communities, we’ve spent our life adapting. And being adaptable is praised, and so it should be. We all need to adapt to situations in life and career. But I think sometimes
We get so used to adapting that we forget that we’re even doing it.
Esi (17:55)
Yeah.
Sarah (17:56)
And you know, I I I like to use 3 C’s because I like my alliteration. I think when it comes to adaptation, adaptation fatigue, firstly there’s the C that’s the cost. You know, what does it cost you to keep trying to be the person that the rest of your family, society, your workplace wants you to be? What does it cost?
And then secondly, there’s the whole thing of coping. We learn to cope, and as disabled people, gosh, I’ll be good at coping. but again, coping comes at a cost.
Esi (18:24)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (18:24)
And then there’s claim, there’s claiming back, you know, there’s reclaiming or claiming something that we’ve lost to help us to think, okay, okay, yeah. You know what I’m being told I’m resilient and I’m brilliant and I’m effective and I’m productive, and that’s that’s good.
But how much is that just that we’re so tired from having to adapt to everything that we’ve we’ve made ourselves become something we’re not?
Esi (18:49)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (18:49)
And so there’s nothing wrong with focus, but again, that word focus, if you’re speaking to somebody with ADHD or autism, or other neurodivergences, their their version of focusing will look very different from somebody who’s neurotypical. So
Esi (19:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah (19:04)
it’s
It’s yeah, counting counting and observing that whole thing of that whole thing of how much have I adapted too much.
Esi (19:13)
You’re talking around this, and using kind of access barriers for disabled people, and the barriers that we face as examples, but but I’m guessing that this is really relevant to you as a transgender woman as well.
Sarah (19:28)
Absolutely, I mean my gosh, I’ve certainly adapted. And that adaptation’s good because obviously I’ve the process for me has been about discovering and becoming my true self, who I’ve always been. So, you know, I have adapted, but again, as somebody who’s trans, there’s a whole load of pressure for you to adapt to what a society expects, in my case, a woman to be.
I mean, that’s a howler that was not just a podcast to a series of audio
Esi (19:56)
Yeah.
Sarah (19:58)
essays but what does it mean to be a woman?
Esi (20:00)
Yeah.
Sarah (20:00)
And you know, as trans women in particular, we can’t win because
Esi (20:04)
Yeah.
Sarah (20:04)
if if you know trans women do women do the whole thing of dressing more traditionally feminine, whatever that means, but you know, society has a view, then we get criticized for caricaturing femininity. But if we
Decide not to play by society’s sort of stereotypes, and it’s like, well, you don’t look enough like a woman. So that in itself, again, is an example of adaptation. You know, how much in the workplace, when we’re having conversations about what we did at the weekend or family, people just make an assumption
Esi (20:34)
Yeah.
Sarah (20:35)
that you’re heterosexual and that you’ve got, you know, a standard family set up. So again, you know, we learn to adapt, we learn to
work out and sometimes it’s very subtle and it can change from environment to environment.
Esi (20:48)
Mm.
Sarah (20:49)
But it’s that process of adapting that while it’s helpful is exhausting.
Esi (20:55)
I mean there’s so much of this. So so first of all, you know, it’s so insulting, isn’t it? When people are saying, well, you don’t look enough like a woman. What does a woman look like? I mean, nobody has
Sarah (21:04)
Well, absolutely.
Esi (21:06)
ever said that to me in my life and if they did, I think I would punch them.
So as a a disabled person, I feel as though I have a sixth sense about how I need to be in a room. So almost like you walk, it’s like a spidey sense. You walk into a room and you can almost instantly tell by how somebody
like those those micro movements in their body, the micro body language, you can tell
Sarah (21:30)
Hmm.
Esi (21:30)
instantly how you need to respond to them. And you know, whether I’m offended or I’m gonna give them a chance or whether this is going to be easy or whether I need to make more of an effort. Is that similar for you as a transgender woman?
Sarah (21:43)
yeah, I mean I y you often hear the term used hypervigilance.
Esi (21:47)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (21:48)
And I think
In look, I’ve I’ve been out since 2013 You know, for me I’ve gone through the pro the full process of social medical transition. But and I’m you know, I’m quite publicly out as me. That I’ve chosen to do that for my work and career.
But even so, every environment you go into, especially when meeting new people, go into a new space, you’re you’re on alert, listening for those signals of what language is being used around you, how are people interacting with you, to just work out how much do I need to not give of myself, but perhaps be a bit more guarded, be…
Well, sometimes even speak a bit less because obviously, you know, my voice still isn’t quite what I want sometimes. And you do get judged for that. So it’s like, well, perhaps I won’t speak as much, just so people don’t say something or call me out. So yeah, I it it all of the time. And again, it’s exhausting. No wonder, you
Esi (22:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And
Sarah (22:42)
know, disabled people were were shattered all the time.
Esi (22:45)
Yeah. And going back to the cost, I mean, this really reminds me of spoon theory as well. So spoon
Sarah (22:50)
Absolutely.
Esi (22:51)
spoon theory was coined by a disabled person, but I think it transcends beyond disability. you know, we all kind of carry our visible and invisible backpacks, and this is part of that invisible backpack.
How does the intersectionality between or the intersection between being a trans woman and a disabled person affect you? You know, in in in the context of what we’re talking about really?
Sarah (23:15)
That is really interesting because I think on the one hand, my visible disability, my blindness, sort of shields me sometimes because people, the first thing people see is my white cane. They might look at me and see that my eyes don’t open, they’re you know, the squishy eyes. so I think they see that first most of the time. And then there might be like
but she’s also quite tall and she perhaps has a deeper voice than some might. So I’m not saying people don’t spot the transness because I, you know, certainly in the the current climate, I think there’s a lot of certainly there’s a lot more focus around that, but I think usually it’s the blindness that people spot and interact with, and then the rest comes second. So,
Esi (23:59)
Mm.
Sarah (23:59)
you know.
There there is their interaction, and I am who I am, but it’s really interesting how different parts of your identity, although they do interplay with each other, can almost hide or mask other aspects.
Esi (24:12)
Yeah, it’s I think it’s it’s interesting because and sad actually more than interesting that the you know this is never part of the discussion. I have listened to discussions on kind of trans spaces, and listened to different opinions on trans spaces, and I’ve listened to discussions and I’ve been part of discussions about
accessible spaces and different opinions. But never have I heard a conversation about both at the same time.
Sarah (24:36)
Mm, absolutely, and I think you know, this would be
Perhaps not a criticism, but I I think things are slowly changing within the world that up until now it would be whether you’ve got disability over here and LGBT here and races over there. And it’s like, yeah, but you can’t I can’t split off the fact I’m trans and I’m blind and I have other hidden disabilities and I’m working class background and I’m white. They’re just they’re all part of me.
Esi (25:03)
Yeah.
Sarah (25:03)
And so I think.
You know, whilst it’s true that obviously, you know, as disabled people, we want to focus on access, we want to focus on inclusion, all of these things. Yeah, but my my my transness, my identity as a queer woman, that that plays into that. So you can’t ignore it.
Esi (25:20)
Yeah, absolutely. Completely. I think that when I go into rooms, people immediately see the disability. I’m a mixed race person as well. I’m a woman and I have other identities that I I choose not to discuss in the space. So I don’t expect people to know them, but I think that people
Sarah (25:37)
yeah.
Esi (25:38)
always see the disability before.
they see anything else. And actually what’s that’s meant to me is some of the identities that I sh choose not to share are because of the stereotypes of being a disabled person.
Sarah (25:53)
Yep, absolutely, I absolutely get that. I mean, come on, you know, if we’re talking about LGBT, well people don’t even think disabled people have any relationship, let alone same sex or
Esi (26:02)
Exactly, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. What what do you mean? Yeah. Which is why it’s where I put
Sarah (26:07)
Anthony.
Esi (26:08)
a post out yesterday, again, going off topic. and I said, in the post, I said, I’m single and I love being single. And I I think I said something like, not that I would expect you to know about it, but it did occur to me when I was writing out, I was thinking, I wonder how many people think, well, that fits, yeah.
Sarah (26:27)
Mmm, who knows?
Esi (26:28)
Yeah, exactly. But you know, the there’s just one of those things. well, it’s not just one of those things at all. I don’t mean that flippantly at all, but it’s all part of kind of what we take into a room with us when we’re
Sarah (26:38)
Yeah.
Esi (26:39)
meeting new people for the first time, isn’t it?
Sarah (26:41)
Yeah.
Esi (26:42)
Yeah. so I mean, we were so we were talking about kind of I just want to cut focus a little bit more on this kind of the hidden cost of us always adapting.
And the the s the hidden side of that resilience as well. If we’re always going to be the people that have to think about how we make life better for other people. Because that’s essentially what we’re doing, aren’t we? When we walk into a space or when we’re about to walk into a space, we are making a conscious or unconscious decision about who we’re going to be in that space and therefore how we’re going to let other people off the hook.
Sarah (27:18)
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think we are when we walk into a space, when we arrive in a space, we are
As I said earlier, we’re we’re scanning, we’re we’re we’re we’re looking, listening, thinking about how does this space feel? Which parts of me do I feel safe to disclose or or to show from which parts might I have to hide? And and you know, everyone does that. Everybody
Esi (27:42)
Yeah.
Sarah (27:42)
does that, disabled LGBT or not. But I think if you are somebody from more of a marginal community,
There is a higher cost. And you know, the cost of getting it wrong might be that you’re patronized, you’re dismissed, you know, it could be even worse if you’re in an unsafe environment. So there is a cost that comes to it. So I think we do get more.
adapt at you know being sensitive, adapting and you know it it’s it’s it’s needed, it’s a safety in the mechanism, but again as I’d say it’s about, yeah, but how much does it cost you to to do that?
Esi (28:13)
Yeah. And it’s exhausting. And I’m thinking you know, you’re right, everybody does that. No matter what their kind of background or identity is, everybody does that. But the the cost for us is is higher because there’s less opportunities for us to try another group or another place to to try this again.
Sarah (28:31)
Yeah, I mean you’re right. If if if somebody who if you’re disabled, if you’re LGBT and you’ve you know, you’ve plucked up the courage to go somewhere new, you know, you’ve got out the door, you’ve found your way to the venue
You’ve sat down, you’ve done the whole introductions, you’re there. And you
Esi (28:45)
Mm.
Sarah (28:46)
know, for some of us, A, it’s not as easy to just leave if you don’t feel quite safe.
Esi (28:53)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (28:53)
And
yeah, if if for any reason, be that attitudinally or environmentally or physically, then it doesn’t work, that’s like well A you’ll be less likely to take that chance again because that well look what happened the last time I tried that.
And B, it’ll just be like, well, you know, there’s even less space I can try now.
Esi (29:09)
Yeah.
Sarah (29:09)
Which which I think does mean, as you mentioned earlier, that’s the onus on others to do what they can to be inclusive.
Esi (29:17)
Mm.
Sarah (29:18)
And that doesn’t mean having to change everything. It just means thinking about, you know, whether it’s an event, a social group, a work, a work thing, a conference, about okay.
What can we do to a let people know in advance what the accessibility features are? And B, how can people get in touch to find out more? And then C just being like if somebody comes along and you haven’t got something quite right, being okay, yeah, I’m really sorry, we didn’t think about that, and then just owning it and pledging to do better the next time. Not
Making a massive song and dance about, my god, I’m so sorry, I see. I’m so so sorry, you must think I’m a bad person. It’s like, no. It’s just you didn’t think about that. So please think about the next time. Now, I’m not saying this to excuse massive accessibility failures. But I think again, when we use the word reasonable adjustment, people think about big, expensive, costly things, and most of them aren’t. They’re just
Esi (30:13)
Exactly.
Sarah (30:13)
about thinking ahead.
Esi (30:15)
Yeah.
Sarah (30:15)
And thinking that you will have people attending or wanting to attend who may not.
Look, see, hear, think, walk, behave, as everybody else does. So how can you accommodate that?
Esi (30:27)
Yeah. Well, absolutely. A an example of that was the other day when we were talking about kind of the the format of the podcast. And I said I would send you a link on Descript and you asked me if Descript
Sarah (30:38)
S.
Esi (30:39)
was accessible for screen readers. I said, I don’t know. I’m gonna have a look. It wasn’t, and I was I’m not saying that everybody has this ability to to adapt so quickly, but I was able to say, right, but I’ve got Riverside instead, and I know that because of what you said, Riverside.
is accessible for screen readers, so let’s use a different platform. It’s having that a attitude to adapt where you can, but having a plan, if it’s not going to work, what can we do instead?
Sarah (31:06)
Absolutely. And being willing to
try and find the solution, being creative. Again, creativity, I think, is a big thing that we need to have as EDI professionals. Curiosity, creativity.
Esi (31:17)
100% absolutely.
Sarah (31:18)
Okay.
Esi (31:19)
yeah, creative, you know, and it’s fun to be creative as well. And I think a lot
Sarah (31:24)
Yeah.
Esi (31:24)
of people in the EDI space, they have come from some kind of creative backgrounds. So you’re just leaning into what you’re already enjoying a little bit, thinking outside the box,
Sarah (31:33)
Absolutely.
Esi (31:35)
not thinking in the way that it’s always been done, but how could it possibly be done and how can it be fun and inclusive for the majority rather than the few.
Sarah (31:45)
Absolutely.
Esi (31:46)
I mean it’s about this kind of it’s not really a concept, is it? It’s just a fact that it’s not about fixing the person, it’s about fixing the environment. It’s not the person
Sarah (31:56)
Yeah.
Esi (31:57)
that’s an issue, it’s the environment, it’s the attitude, it’s the way that things have always been done.
that needs to be the thing that’s changed.
Sarah (32:05)
Absolutely, I think th there is always a solution and yeah, it’s just being willing to to think differently, to be open different solutions and not, you know, look, I am blind, I have no vision, I can’t do anything about that. But you as a service provider, you as an employer, you can do a lot about how you provide access to information, how you make things possible.
I can’t help the fact that I can’t see. That’s that’s my reality. but you as a service provider, you as an employer, you can help whether you provide things and the other you provide things in accessible materials, you can help whether or not you’ve checked your website to see whether that’s accessible.
There’s a lot you can do to make sure that my needs are met.
Esi (32:52)
Absolutely. And it’s not all about kind of one person sitting in a room or even one team of people sitting in the room coming up with these answers themselves, is it?
Sarah (33:02)
No, it’s it’s it’s everybody. We all have a part to play. You know, just simple things like if you’re producing a document, have you run the accessibility checker that there is in, you know, Microsoft Office. So, you know, that’s not the accessibility team’s remit, that’s your remit. Just quickly
Esi (33:18)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (33:18)
running the accessibility checker on a PowerPoint or a Word doc or whatever, just to check it’s gonna work with a screen reader.
Esi (33:25)
It takes two seconds. Well depending on how long the document is.
Sarah (33:26)
Yeah, yeah. Now yes, if if there’s
something more complex you might need some specialist stuff, but it’s tech’s pretty good these days at saying to you, you might want to change this or do that.
Esi (33:36)
Yeah. And the great thing about modern yeah, as you’re saying, the great thing about modern technology is it’s already embedded on the computer. So it’s not like you have to go
Sarah (33:44)
Yeah, yeah.
Esi (33:45)
out and get something new. It’s right there in Microsoft Word for you to click that button.
Sarah (33:49)
Tell to me.
Esi (33:50)
And I think that, you know, there’s a there’s a lot to be done regarding
Sarah (33:53)
Yeah.
Esi (33:54)
processes. So absolutely it’s not necessarily the accessibility team’s responsibility to check your document.
But the accessibility team can be putting in those processes and those kind of informal trainings to help you as a team member to know what you can do on an everyday basis.
Sarah (34:11)
Absolutely. No, I d I completely agree.
Esi (34:14)
Mm. And also I think it’s about collaboration and co-production as well. So if you’re designing a new product or service or website or you’re whatever you’re doing, either as a public company or a service provider, sorry,
Sarah (34:23)
actually.
Esi (34:29)
a pu a private company or a public service provider, there are ways you can have focus groups either internally or externally.
Sarah (34:36)
Mm.
Esi (34:37)
the ways that you can release surveys to your internal employees or your external customers, ask for feedback and use that feedback to improve the accessibility and the the inclusive opportunities of that that product or service that you’re providing as well.
Sarah (34:55)
Yeah, I mean it used to really annoy me when I worked for companies that so I use Assistive Tech, I use a George screen reader, and the number of times, Sarah, can you just have a look at this? ‘Cause you use George. I’m like, I’m not employed as a accessibility
Esi (35:08)
Yeah.
Sarah (35:10)
tester. If you wanna if you wanna pay me to do that, fine, but that’s not my job. So go
Esi (35:15)
Yeah.
Sarah (35:15)
and ask somebody else to do it.
Esi (35:16)
Yeah. I have it as well. When I so I’ll go into kind of a venue and I’ll use the accessible loo and they’ll say, while you’re there, can you just give us your opinion on this? It’s like no,
Sarah (35:26)
Yeah.
Esi (35:27)
no, I’m using the loo. I’m not access auditing
Sarah (35:29)
Absolutely, said
Esi (35:31)
your loo for you.
Sarah (35:32)
Absolutely. But again, that also links into how those of us that are in those marginal communities we’re expected to be the ones that do the work to correct things. You know, we’re back to adaptation, fatigue again, the cost,
Esi (35:44)
Yeah.
Sarah (35:45)
you know. Just ’cause we’re disabled doesn’t mean we should be the ones point well, if we choose to do it, that’s different.
Esi (35:51)
But just because we’re disabled doesn’t mean that we should do it. Yeah.
Sarah (35:55)
No.
Esi (35:55)
Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s quite dangerous as well, I think. So so, you know, in those those circumstances, and I’m sure you did too, in those circumstances where people would say to me, you know, while you’re there, can you just tell us what you think about the loo? It’s dangerous because I’m one disabled
Sarah (36:10)
Okay.
Esi (36:12)
person. I’m one wheelchair user. My access needs are
Sarah (36:15)
Absolutely.
Esi (36:16)
specific to me.
I can’t say, yes, this is perfect. You don’t have to do anything because
Sarah (36:18)
Yeah.
Esi (36:21)
then the next disabled person will come in and be like, Why is
Sarah (36:24)
Yeah.
Esi (36:24)
this in my way? because Esi told us that that was fine.
Sarah (36:28)
Absolutely. No, totally, totally agree.
Esi (36:31)
Yeah, so it needs to be done from a standardized and also professional prospect so the companies are not going back to retrofit.
Sarah (36:39)
Totally. It’s much easier to do things at the start. Inclusive design, it works.
Esi (36:44)
Woohoo! Champion that, yes. okay,
brilliant.
So I think this leads us on really well to kind of if you know giving advice to our audience. So our audience, we are made up of disabled people in the audience as well, people from marginalized communities who are listening to empower themselves and to learn how to advocate for themselves, but also a wide kind of section of our audience is EDI experts and people working in
Sarah (37:12)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (37:12)
the EDI space at the moment.
What advice would you give them to be more inclusive, to be more mindful of the things that we’ve been talking about today?
Sarah (37:24)
So, what advice would I give to other EDI professionals? I think firstly, my advice would be just be kind to yourself. Because you know, those of us that work in this space, it’s hard work. It takes an emotional toll on us, especially given some of the challenges around the way the EDI landscape has changed in the past 18 months. It’s getting harder. The work
Esi (37:47)
Yeah.
Sarah (37:47)
is still vital.
But it’s getting harder. So I would say firstly, you know, give yourself a break. Make sure you look after yourself. You know, coming back to adaptation, how many of we had to adapt the way we work as EDI professionals given the current political and social climate? So yeah, give yourself a break.
I think also that as much as obviously, you know, being an EDI practitioner was about changing systems, policies, processes. I think sometimes we can forget that we’re talking about individual lives here. We forget what I phrase the humanity behind the headlines. So, yes, you need to look at statistics for how many disabled people have you got in your company and what
proportion have this disability, that disability. That’s that’s that’s good. You need those statistics, that data, but don’t forget you’re talking about people. So when it comes to changing a policy, developing something new, make sure you’re consulting with your employee resource groups or your staff networks to get the feedback, to get the input from people that that’s really going to impact.
Esi (38:55)
Completely agree. Yeah, 100% agree. and I think it’s always it’s referring back to the why this is happening in the first place. So why is this important that you you know, if you are analyzing or or kind of collecting the data on how many disabled or transgender people you have in your workplace, why are you doing it? Are you doing it because you know this is what you do every year?
Where did it start? What was the meaning for it when you began? And is that still the same meaning? Has it adapted? Or have you forgotten the meaning? And if you have forgotten the why, let’s go back to the beginning and understand the why again because as you say, that’s what keeps the person in the center of the conversation.
Sarah (39:38)
Yeah, absolutely, completely agree.
Esi (39:41)
Brilliant. so I always ask my guests;
What are your influences?
Sarah (39:46)
Well, yeah.
I I’m gonna be cliche, but I don’t care. I’m a massive U2 fan.
Esi (39:51)
Brilliant.
Sarah (39:51)
And I know Bono splits people’s opinions. But I think somebody who’s used his platform to bring about change, and hey, yeah, I know he’s still rich with it, but he’s used that for good purpose, good means. I also think my mum, bless her, and my dad, but my mum in particular, she spent a lot of time with me growing up.
Back and forth to hospital for hospital visits and surgeries and all sorts. She didn’t have great health herself. When I came out as trans, you know, once she’d got over the initial sort of understanding what that meant, I was her daughter.
Esi (40:23)
Mm.
Sarah (40:24)
And well betide anybody, and bearing in mind, I grew up in a small town in Northumberland, not very diverse. Woe betide anybody.
chose to criticize on misgender me, she would she’d be on them. And yeah, I was really lucky because I know lots of LGBTQ LGBTQ plus people in particular don’t have the support for my family. But yeah, I think my mum was one of my biggest influences.
Esi (40:48)
I think that’s great. I love that. And I you know, I love that, you know, more and more people are talking about kind of musical influences and whether that’s a person or a genre. So I really like that as well.
Sarah (40:59)
А
Music is my happy place. Music is my oxygen.
Esi (41:03)
Mind too, absolutely mine too. I mean, we could we could have another episode on the wonders of live music, but we’ll save that.
Sarah (41:11)
We could.
Esi (41:12)
I’m saying that to myself because I’m about to start talking about it. So I’ll stop right there.
Sarah (41:18)
Okay.
Esi (41:18)
so we are coming to the end of the episode at the moment. So in a minute I’m gonna ask you where people can find you and get hold of you. But do you have any final thoughts? Is there anything else you would like people to know?
Sarah (41:31)
No, I think I think just to reiterate what I said before, if if you’ve been watching this episode and you’ve noticed that adaptation fatigue I’ve talked about, and you’ve noticed it’s come at a cost, don’t blame yourself. Take some time, take a moment, think about it, reflect on it. And don’t just rush into try and fix it. Think about what is it trying to tell you about who you are.
who you are becoming and what might it be telling you about, you know, your life ahead.
Esi (41:59)
Mm-hmm. And I’d also like to add to that if I if I’m allowed, if I can, if you don’t mind, that kind of, you know, that those those kind of I the adaptation fatigue is an idea that I think if you don’t feel it yourself, but you work in a space where you can make a difference, this this can make a very big difference to your to to how you design and how you work with people as well.
Sarah (42:23)
Absolutely.
Esi (42:24)
Hm. so where can people find you and get hold of you, Sarah?
Sarah (42:28)
Yes, I’m very active on LinkedIn. If you look for Sarah Stevenson, you should find me. Also Seeing Things Differently. So the website is www.seeingthingsdifferently.co.uk uk. Those are my main sources for people to get in touch. If you go on LinkedIn, sign up to my newsletter. yeah, those are the main the main areas.
Esi (42:51)
Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. And we’re gonna put all those in the show notes as well so that people can click the links and and find you immediately. thanks very much for coming on the podcast today, Sarah. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation.
Sarah (43:05)
Thank you thank and thank you so much for having me. It’s been a great conversation. Thank you.
Esi (43:10)
It’s my pleasure to have you here. thank you very much everyone for tuning in yet again to another episode of the Equality Edit. Thank you so much, everyone
for tuning in yet again to another episode of the Equality Edit. It means so much that you tune in and listen and watch.
If anything has come up for you in this episode, or indeed in any of the other episodes that you would like to explore a bit more, please do feel free to get in touch. and we can talk to you about it or signpost you on to one of the amazing guests that have been on the podcast that might be able to give you more specific advice on it.
okay, speak to you soon. Thanks everyone.