Episode Summary
Creating an equitable workplace requires organisations to consider how their policies, expectations and culture affect people differently. This episode looks at psychological safety, rebuilding trust, listening and responding to employee experiences, and how seemingly neutral policies and KPIs can create barriers. It explores intersectionality, bringing your whole self to work and why sustainable inclusion needs to be embedded into organisational culture rather than addressed through one-off initiatives.
Transcript
today. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you so much, viewers and listeners for tuning in yet again. And as I’ve said before, if there are any topics in the equality space that you would like to know more about, or if you’re stuck with anything in the workplace,
Please drop us a line because we’d love to kind of create an episode around it And if you know anybody who would be a really good guest On the podcast, please also drop us a line. Let us know But until next time have a really good rest of your day. Thank you very much everyone. Bye
Christian F. Nunes (50:51)
Bye.
Audio
Christian F. Nunes (00:00)
Many companies want to say, we are psychologically safe.
We don’t have that problem. We treat everyone fairly. Well, that’s what you have on paper, right? That’s what your policy says. But how does that translate into everyday workplace environment? What are your staff really saying? How are your staff really feeling? What are your memberships saying? What is your brand saying? Right.
Esi (00:21)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (00:22)
And then so a big part of it is getting them to first like have this honesty about what’s really happening in an organisation. Cause I think the organisations that are the ones that
are honest about we’re having this issue are the ones that are actually going to improve that issue and be committed
Esi (00:36)
Thanks for listening.
Christian F. Nunes (00:37)
to sustainable change. The ones that say, nope, no, no, we’re good. We don’t have the issue. We just, you know, we just need people to do better. But why are people not doing better? See, we’re we’re not looking at the underpinnings, right, of the issue. And so I think the biggest challenge is getting people to say that if the organisation is suffering in these issues, that also means the people are suffering in these issues.
They’re they they are together. They’re in they’re intersected. You can’t say we’re suffering with, you know, you know, a toxic work environment, but then say and don’t think the people are not experiencing the trauma or the pain from a toxic work environment. And if you want to eradicate or get rid of that toxic work environment, you have to do work on all levels. So I think that’s the biggest challenge is getting people not to piecemeal it.
Esi (01:35)
Hi everybody. Thank you again for joining us for another episode of the Equality Edit. I hope everything’s going well for you. I’m joined today by a guest called Christian Nunes. And we met a few months ago and really talked about kind of disability, intersectionality,
and how we ensure that people can bring their whole selves by noticing the whole person.
So I’m going to hand over to Christian right now for her to introduce herself.
Christian F. Nunes (02:03)
Yes, thank you so much, Esi It is a pleasure to be on your podcast today. as Esi stated, my name is Christian F. Nunes. I go by pronouns she, her, hers. I have been in the field of mental health, health disabilities in the clinical, I should say micro, macro, meso field of practice, a lot of focusing on advocacy work, as well as just
creating policies and programs that really help make sure that inclusion is possible. I’m the founder and CEO of Equity Bound Solutions LLC, which is a consulting firm that specifically focuses and hyper focuses on
proactive equitable solutions to help organisations, companies, groups, individuals be proactive in implementing equity into their programs, their organisational culture, etc So I’m really excited to be here and have this conversation.
Esi (02:56)
Awesome. Well, you’re really welcome here.
Why is this important to you? And how did you end up in this space?
Christian F. Nunes (03:01)
Sure. So I mean, growing up in the United States as a I would say cisgender, heterosexual black woman, you know, there have been countless times that I have felt discrimination, felt the impact of systemic inequalities, dual inequities because of my social identities, being a female, being a black woman, just those two accepts.
you know, as there’s racism and sexism that I’ve also encountered.
Esi (03:28)
Mm.
Christian F. Nunes (03:28)
And I never really had the chance of really see anybody that was actively like committed and proactively engaged in fixing those things. and then I want to add another layer. Then I also deal with fibromyalgia and rheumatoid arthritis, which is a very invisible and and I deal with those things in the process of also
managing my health and you know, and and doing the work and and many people don’t know that because it’s invisible and they don’t see it and they see me pushing and going. So just over the time I just felt like it was really important to work with organisations about how do you proactively show that you’re committed to equity, how do you proactively put things in place to show that. So I started doing trainings, and consultations and speaking engagements. And then eventually, you know,
founded the practice that really is like intentional about creating equity because without equity, people are not able to get to their full self that they would be would have been able to get to because of the disadvantages and barriers. So focusing on equity helps you create – really equality. Equality
Esi (04:30)
Mmm.
Christian F. Nunes (04:31)
can’t occur without equity. So we have to make sure that equity is there first.
Esi (04:35)
It’s interesting what you say about kind of without true equity, people can’t bring their whole selves. I completely
Christian F. Nunes (04:42)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (04:42)
agree. Over the years and still somewhat now I have an issue with the idea of bringing our whole selves to work because you
Christian F. Nunes (04:50)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (04:51)
the idea that we know our whole selves, I think personally is a fallacy because so much of ourselves is unconscious. So how do you kind of
work around and tackle that with the work that you do.
Christian F. Nunes (05:02)
Sure. So when we speak to bringing your whole self, yes, I agree with you. There’s lots. It’s unconscious, but there is an identity that resonates with you. There is a self-identity that you are fully aware of, that you fully know is true to you and intuitively, and what you stand for, your values, your beliefs, your perspectives. bringing your whole self to work is means that you can show up to work.
Being authentically yourself and all of your identities and not feel that you have to mask it, not feel like you have to you know, people please or acculturate or assimilate, that you have to pretend to be anybody else, that you feel comfortable and you feel safe being your truth authentic self. Now, yes, there’s parts of us that we say for home life, right? There’s parts of us we say for friends, but essentially who you are, what you stand for, what you believe.
You should be able to show up to work with that lived experience because that lived experience is actually shaping and creating the strengths that you need to do your job effectively. And so we never look at that lived experience as so vital, but it’s so vital for inclusivity, it’s so vital for equity, it’s so vital for even productivity in the workplace. When people feel that they can show up their full selves, they’re more productive, they’re more engaged in work, they’re more committed to the mission of the organisation,
they’re also able to like really put themselves in it because they feel safe, right? And so, you know, showing up authentically is you wanna be able to show up and be in and feel safe in that workplace. And that’s what you really have to do. And a big part of that is psychological safety.
Esi (06:35)
Completely, 100 % agree. And I think, you know, a person who is able to bring themselves, their authentic selves to work, as you say, you’re freed up because you’re not worrying about kind of what I call the invisible backpack, those barriers that exist, that it’s really, really hard to articulate.
whether it’s disability-based
Christian F. Nunes (06:56)
Absolutely.
Esi (06:58)
barriers, whether it’s racial-based barriers, whatever those barriers are, when you’re in a place where you feel safe to be yourself, then
Christian F. Nunes (07:05)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (07:05)
you can just relax and do what you want to do, make connections, join communities and everything like that.
Christian F. Nunes (07:10)
Yeah, absolutely. I like that invisible backpack because that’s really what it is, right? You’re carrying all these things in with you that nobody sees. No
Esi (07:18)
Mm.
Christian F. Nunes (07:18)
one has any clue. And what happens is we get judged on a culture that has urgency, expediency, either or thinking, perfectionism, all these things are so embedded in our organisational cultures and workplace cultures that when the when people are not able to
meet any of these fallacies of, you know, of being perfect or, you know, always having black or white thinking or a parentification
or even just essentially I I guess just essentially just being able to make mistakes and be human, which is not
Esi (07:53)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (07:53)
allowed, then it it it puts so much a burden on people, right?
Esi (07:57)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (07:58)
I mean, you’re asking them to perform, but you’re not taking consideration what they just walked in with. When
Esi (08:04)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (08:04)
you know, and so it’s that invisible backpack. That’s that’s awesome. I like that. That’s good.
Esi (08:09)
Thank you. And 100 % agree with what you’re saying. And what it also does is when you set the agenda of how people need to be in the workplace, you are demonstrating those behaviors to everybody. So nobody
Christian F. Nunes (08:20)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (08:20)
can ever relax. Nobody can ever show their authentic self. And it becomes
Christian F. Nunes (08:24)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (08:24)
that vicious cycle, doesn’t it?
Christian F. Nunes (08:26)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Esi (08:28)
You were talking about kind of bringing this into the workplace and working with businesses to kind of bring this into reality. So where do you, when you work with businesses, what mainly is their starting point?
Christian F. Nunes (08:41)
So everything starts with an assessment, right? Because when people are contacting you or either on reaching out, whatever the way, it’s always, you know, to help figure out. They’re trying to figure out how they’re addressing or solving pain points that the organisation’s having. So everything has to start with organisational assessments. So you kind of know what’s already existing in the organisation, what the culture is already in that organisation, what are the pain points and the challenges they’re having. And then what are their goals? What are they helping to get out of this, you know,
this consultancy that’s gonna help benefit the organisation to reach their mission, vision, and outcome. And definitely financial is always a part of it, right? So with the organisational assessment, and part of that is the equity audit, is that we are looking at like where are you already measuring up? You know, how would your staff receive? How would your leadership receive? How would your executive leadership receive? How would your membership, if you have a membership, receive it?
and then taking the information and really doing that and going through a SWOT analysis and everything to see like how everything is stacking up. And then once things are stacked, you know, you have a clear picture, then we’re able to like assess, okay, based off of this information and what research tells us about these things, you know, we’re able to write these make these recommendations of what could be benefiting your organisation. Sometimes it’s a full equity assessment, recommendation, and coaching. Sometimes it’s as simple as policy review.
Sometimes as simple as training, you know, but the first process we always start with is a full organisational assessment, which has the equity audit built into it.
Esi (10:12)
Do you find that businesses, there are common challenges that the companies and businesses are facing?
Christian F. Nunes (10:18)
Absolutely, Esi And it’s one of the things too, I would say, I think there is also a disconnect for companies to understand that many of their employees feel parts of inequity, right? Many companies want to say, we are psychologically safe.
We don’t have that problem. We treat everyone fairly. Well, that’s what you have on paper, right? That’s what your policy says. But how does that translate into everyday workplace environment? What are your staff really saying? How are your staff really feeling? What are your memberships saying? What is your brand saying? Right.
Esi (10:54)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (10:55)
And then so a big part of it is getting them to first like have this honesty about what’s really happening in an organisation. Cause I think the organisations that are the ones that
are honest about we’re having this issue are the ones that are actually going to improve that issue and be committed
Esi (11:09)
Thanks for listening.
Christian F. Nunes (11:10)
to sustainable change. The ones that say, nope, no, no, we’re good. We don’t have the issue. We just, you know, we just need people to do better. But why are people not doing better? See, we’re we’re not looking at the underpinnings, right, of the issue. And so I think the biggest challenge is getting people to say that if the organisation is suffering in these issues, that also means the people are suffering in these issues.
They’re they they are together. They’re in they’re intersected. You can’t say we’re suffering with, you know, you know, a toxic work environment, but then say and don’t think the people are not experiencing the trauma or the pain from a toxic work environment. And if you want to eradicate or get rid of that toxic work environment, you have to do work on all levels. So I think that’s the biggest challenge is getting people not to piecemeal it.
But be a hundred percent committed and intentional about shifting that culture that’s creating these issues for them that they don’t want.
Esi (12:04)
And
this cycles back to what you were saying earlier, and we were saying earlier about psychological safety, but also
having equitable opportunities to reach that equality. Because
Christian F. Nunes (12:14)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (12:14)
if Let’s say an organisation is saying, we have an environment that’s toxic, but not willing to do the work, your
Christian F. Nunes (12:22)
Right.
Esi (12:22)
organisation goes in and does all that.
then it’s just showing the employees that actually this isn’t true, this isn’t real, this isn’t true. This is just a tick box exercise.
Christian F. Nunes (12:33)
Yeah, exactly. So if you say, we’re gonna hold this training because your your employees have made some complaints or concerns, and you just do this one one off training, but there’s no consistency, there’s no sustainability there’s no action planning and what you’re doing to show this investment into fixing this,
Esi (12:52)
you
Christian F. Nunes (12:53)
you’re you’re still gonna have the trust issue with your employees. They’re still going to not trust
that this workplace is safe, that they can be themselves, their full selves, that they feel equality existing, right? And so you have to have a commitment. It has to be deeply embedded into your organisational culture. And if it hasn’t been before, it has to be implementing it and embedding it in there so people can see the consistency, right? Esi because trust
Esi (13:19)
Right.
Christian F. Nunes (13:20)
is a process, right?
Once trust has been violated, it’s just not gonna be fixed because you did one training or you said one you sent out one letter from the CEO saying we’re sorry. But you know,
Esi (13:30)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (13:31)
it it’s about restorative accountability. It’s about, okay, I’m acknowledging what we did, but we are also committed to repairing the harm that’s existed, that has created these inequities, have created these injustices, have created this this feeling of being unsafe.
That’s what has to happen. You have to have this sort of accountability where you’re you’re acknowledging it, you’re taking responsibility, you are acknowledging what you did, but you’re also saying like what do I need to do? What do we need to do as a company to repair the harm? And I’m gonna show you that we’re gonna do it and be committed to it.
Esi (14:02)
Mm-hmm. So I get I you know, I’m trying to put myself in the shoes
of our listeners of our viewers that are listening and watching this episode Thinking well, I won’t say that but I don’t know where to start I don’t know with so many identities in my workplace I have no idea how to tackle everything
Christian F. Nunes (14:24)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (14:24)
So what kind of advice or where would you tell people to kind of start having those conversations?
Christian F. Nunes (14:32)
So I I think it’s it’s always important to get feedback from the people that are actually part of the organisation or the community or the group, right? And taking that time to do like an anonymous feedback, I would always
Esi (14:43)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (14:44)
encourage to to ask, you know,
what it is people are
feeling,
what it is they feel like they need for support, what do they think they that the organisation can benefit by adding or changing?
What do they feel like the challenges are? Have that anonymous
feedback survey so that people can be speak honestly and tell you. And then when you get those results back, then you know where you need to start, right? Then you prioritise. Like how do now where do we start in these what what was the number one pain point or issue, concern that was brought up? Was number two. What was number three? And then you start working from there. But if you never take the time to actually get feedback.
From the people that are working in your organisation, then it’s a disservice because then you’re as executive staff are then choosing what you think they need to work on. But really, what are people saying they need to work on? What have been concerns and complaints that have come through? What have you heard staff stay in supervision sessions? What have been these things that have been communicated? Have an anonymous survey so people can reflect. And I always tell people and don’t take it personal, right? Don’t take the results personal.
because people come with lived experience, they come with their own traumas, they come with transfer trauma from other workplaces that were
Esi (15:53)
Okay.
Christian F. Nunes (15:54)
horrible, and they have a legacy trauma in organisations that maybe before you, maybe even three, four executive directors before you, the person was toxic. But those memories linger in that organisation, if if the work has never been fixed, right? So there’s
Esi (16:08)
100%.
Christian F. Nunes (16:09)
multiple things to contribute. So
The goal is that you’re not taking it personal as it’s a personal attack on you, but that you are leading this organisation. And so for you to lead this organisation, you’re invested to making sure this organisation is a great place. Like just not on paper, not you
Esi (16:23)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (16:26)
know, that everything about it represents the mission and vision of the organisation and what you’re looking for. so yeah, I just say you gotta start by that feedback first, not taking it personal and then
looking at what was identified and and going there for what you feel like the organisation needs to work on.
Esi (16:42)
And I would also say that I agree with that completely. I would also say with that ensuring that people understand why they’re feeding back, why you’re doing the survey in the first place, because even though it’s anonymous,
Christian F. Nunes (16:52)
Mm-hmm. absolutely.
Esi (16:54)
know, that that kind of, you know, it brings up suspicion, especially if there’s prior experiences of kind of bad experiences when people feed back. So being really clear about.
why we’re doing this and what the intention is behind it and what we’re going to do next kind of thing.
Christian F. Nunes (17:11)
One hundred percent Esi If you’re not being transparent and clear in the communication of why this survey is taking place, it then it’s gonna cause probably more rumors and gossip, right? And like you said, and more hesitation, then it will be like honesty.
Esi (17:30)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And not being in, you know, knowing that leaders aren’t in it alone, that they kind of, there’s a community here to make a difference. So it’s not about kind of a group of people sitting in a boardroom saying, well, I think that 80 % of the responses said this, so we’re going to do it like that. It’s about kind of going back to the people, to the people, to employees and saying, okay,
This is what we got from these resources. This is what we’re planning to do with this. We’d like to create some focus groups. We’d like to create steering and working groups to work towards this, to understand how we can change and then implement these changes.
Christian F. Nunes (18:10)
Yeah, so you brought up a great point. it’s because one thing I I see sometimes too is that even when organisations do the survey, sometimes the leadership decides to go ahead and make those changes on their own and not communicate
Esi (18:24)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (18:25)
directly to the employees what they’re going to do with their survey results. And that can be problematic because then there feels like there’s exclusion and not inclusion, right? Yes, we
Esi (18:35)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (18:35)
know that.
Every staff member cannot decide exactly what policy will happen or how you’ll do it, but to be clear and honest and open and transparent to say we received these results. This is kind of how it looked overall. These are the main issues that shut up for us. So what we’re gonna do with these results, like you said, Esi is then we’re gonna take these results and we’re gonna do A, B, C, and D.
As we’re going through this process, we want to ask you how it’s looking. We’re going to get your feedback to make sure it’s going in direction that we want it to go. And then from there, we’ll keep adjusting as we need to make sure we get to the outcome and the goal we have. Like having
Esi (19:13)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (19:13)
that clear conversation, just being up front, makes such a difference. And people feeling like they’re included, that they matter, that they’re valued, you know, and that the organisation is committed to, you know, creating equity and equality.
Esi (19:28)
100
% and depending on how big and what the resources are of that organisation, there could be kind of some way of employees being able to see what’s going on in real time, whether that’s
Christian F. Nunes (19:37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Esi (19:39)
kind of an internal database or regular kind of drop in like webinar or feedback sessions and things like that as well. I also
Christian F. Nunes (19:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Esi (19:48)
think, and I don’t know what your experience is on this, but there is a way to kind of measure that data as it goes through.
through things like KPIs where we
Christian F. Nunes (19:58)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (19:59)
can analyze what’s working and what isn’t working and then look at why that isn’t working.
Christian F. Nunes (20:04)
Yeah, absolutely. I think KPIs are great, but one thing I will say is how you gotta be careful about how the KPIs are based, right?
Esi (20:13)
And then.
Christian F. Nunes (20:14)
Because we go back to equity, we have to look at the differences of people, right? Their learning style, their learning curve, their you know, you know, any challenges that may come up. If there is disability that may come up, you know, how they may be performing are meaningless things. So if you have it too rigid.
Esi (20:30)
We’re done.
Christian F. Nunes (20:31)
It can actually make an very innovative, creative, amazing employee look like they’re not make meeting KPIs because they
Esi (20:39)
100%.
Christian F. Nunes (20:40)
are too standardized, you know. And yes, you need them, you need measurements, absolutely 100%. But how are you developing your measurements? Are they allowing for the difference in training, the difference in learning, the difference in level, the difference in ability, the difference?
Are we allowing those things to be to taken in consideration when we’re setting these KPIs? Because too many times, you know, like let’s give the perfect example, you know. the we look at timing, you know, time-bound things, right? And we say, okay, what this KPI, we want to make sure that by you know in 90 days, everybody has achieved A, B, C, and D. Okay. And these are the things now.
that sounds n that sounds fine, right? In general principle,
Esi (21:22)
next
Christian F. Nunes (21:22)
it sounds fine. But then if you start looking at the diversity of your workplace, you start looking at diversity of job titles, caseloads, expectations, requirements, ability, you know, you know, things like that, I think then it changes and shifts it, right? And it can’t be
Esi (21:38)
100%.
Christian F. Nunes (21:39)
so this. Like I know if I have someone who has
Five projects and they’re light projects, they may be able to reach that 90 days quicker. But if I have someone who has two projects and these projects are intense, they’re heavy, they’re really detailed, they may not be able to get to that 90 days the same way. Then if I have somebody who maybe has to start working later in the day because of their disability, they have a different shift.
And then they’re missing two important meetings, right? That might give them some input or information because of their works, their work schedule. Then I need to make sure that I’m accommodating their KPIs to meet according to their schedule, what they’re getting access to for information and the resources they’re getting so that they so it’s fair. And I think that’s what we have to look at a little bit more. It’s like how are we setting these KPIs to really be reflective of what we’re asking? And so that we can get to that.
Esi (22:37)
Yeah, 100 % I completely agree. So when I was talking about KPIs, I was talking about more those organisation goals. Like, so for example, KPIs around reasonable adjustments, know, randomly
Christian F. Nunes (22:48)
yes.
Esi (22:49)
random figure, but 85 % of the disabled people have had their requests implemented within 30 days, for example.
Christian F. Nunes (23:00)
Okay.
Esi (23:00)
I completely, 100
Christian F. Nunes (23:01)
Okay. Yes.
Esi (23:02)
% agree with you about individual KPIs that they, they’re so, it’s so easy for that disadvantage to come out because they’re just set as a blanket standard. And they’re not thinking about people’s intersectionalities. It could be a parent, for example, that has five children. So when
Christian F. Nunes (23:20)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (23:20)
they get home, they have parenting duties as opposed to the young person whose first job.
and they’ve got all their time to dedicate to their work, for example.
Christian F. Nunes (23:30)
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely. And even with organisational KPIs, I still think there has to be some some complete awareness about how you’re you’re setting up those organisational KPIs as well, too, right?
Esi (23:44)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (23:45)
yes, they’re overall, but are they inclusive? Right? And I think that’s what you’re saying, Esi. Are they inclusive? Are they considering all things?
because sometimes we can still get in that same way of creating that same feeling if we’re creating KPIs that are not inclusive.
Esi (24:00)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (24:00)
And so I think that’s a big part of it.
Esi (24:02)
Can you give an example of how an organisation or KPI may not be inclusive?
Christian F. Nunes (24:07)
Yeah. I mean, I think that okay, like for instance, when we’re talking about HR’s a great per HR’s always a great department to look at this, right?
Esi (24:16)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (24:16)
so when you look at human resources, right? and you’re setting like these standards for like sick time leave policies and
Esi (24:25)
Mm.
Christian F. Nunes (24:26)
you know, and you’re feeling like your staff haven’t been, as
productive or present as they need to and you’re creating these new policies and your policies are very rigid and your sick time policy is like you only can get sick time approved if you know you notify within so much period of time. Which I’ve actually seen organisations say, let us know at 24 how someone can let you know in 24 hours in advance and they’re gonna be sick. I never understood that. But I’ve seen I know you’ve
Esi (24:45)
Okay.
Christian F. Nunes (24:51)
seen them too, right? It’s crazy. But you know but I think it’s just looking at like
What are your what are your expectations? You know, are your expectations so rigid where it’s creating more you know, barriers for a person? even with PTO, you know, do you really always have to give the five days? Does that work for persons who have other responsibilities or have children or who have other things that are gonna create extra work for them? And then visible backpack. I’m gonna use that then in visible backpack. I love it.
So but you know what I’m saying, you when you really
Esi (25:20)
Do do do, take it, take it.
Christian F. Nunes (25:22)
think about it, yeah, like you have to think about somehow policies are written, right? you know, and and I think HR is the biggest area we see it because a lot of times in H H R we have these things that we said, like we want to make sure our staff are meeting, you know, 75% of you know, of this, dah, dah, dah, dah, but whatever, or their performance evaluation scores are in this range.
You know, and that’s another one when you’re looking at performance evaluation scores and what you expect, you know, key performance indicators for how a person’s performing and exceeding in their job. Organizations set those things. Okay. And but then how are you measuring it? Like are you measuring in a way that’s fair and equitable? Or are you measuring it in a way that’s for someone who just got out of college, like you said, just got out of college, has some responsibility, has no family, has no other.
They’re just them. They could stay up all night and work and get something done because
Esi (26:15)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (26:15)
it’s just them. Are you looking at this in an equitable way?
Esi (26:18)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (26:19)
And so I think, you know, HR is that big area we see where they really have to look at those policies and see how are you creating this inclusive environment and your organisational policies and your key performance indicators? How are these policies really resonating? Are these policies really reflective of what you say you’re about as an organisation?
Esi (26:36)
Well, it’s about anything. is something we talked about in our pre kind of podcast conversation. it’s about kind of intent versus impact. So what are we
Christian F. Nunes (26:44)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (26:45)
trying to achieve? Are we trying to achieve people that work like worker monkeys all the time, or are we trying
Christian F. Nunes (26:52)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (26:52)
to achieve our organisation goals for our clients?
Christian F. Nunes (26:56)
Right. And I think sometimes it gets blurred. I think a
Esi (26:59)
you
Christian F. Nunes (26:59)
not sometimes, I think a lot of times it gets blurred. I think when organisations start focusing growing and then funding starts being an issue and demand starts being an issue, you get you lose that mission that mission drift occurs, right? And
Esi (27:13)
Yep.
Christian F. Nunes (27:14)
then you stop you move away from your actual mission and you get focused more on like
Like how much we’re gonna get, how much we’re gonna quick how quickly can we do it, how fast can we achieve it? How much can we we have to get this money, we have to meet you know, it it gets lost. And and when that gets lost, so do the so does morale, so does commitment, so does, you know, buy in, you know, so does outcomes, you know. And you’re not actually creating an environment where you’re gonna be producing better, more effective, more efficient, or having better productivity and
And you know, you’re just creating an environment where now people are like either just doing the basics just to check the boxes or they’re qu quietly quitting because they can’t take it anymore, or they’re just hanging on, you know.
Esi (28:01)
So we were talking about when is just all about kind of the bottom line and
Christian F. Nunes (28:05)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (28:06)
And that, you know, it doesn’t just affect kind of the business morale and the business bottom line, but it affects the people in the business as well. So if the
Christian F. Nunes (28:14)
Absolutely.
Esi (28:15)
employees are disconnecting, if they’re losing interest, they’re doing the bare minimum, it has an impact on their mental health. It has an impact on everything else in somebody’s life as well. So we need to really be looking at this holistically for our organisation and our employees that work within it as well.
Christian F. Nunes (28:33)
Absolutely, one hundred percent agree.
Esi (28:35)
So when we were discussing what we were going to discuss on this episode, something that you said that was really interesting that I’d love to talk more about in this episode, is the research you did with police departments in the US.
Christian F. Nunes (28:51)
Yeah.
So I was I lived in Arizona State for I would say most of my life and I was appointed the commissioner for the city of Phoenix’s mayor’s commission disability issues. and on that on that and during my time there there what happened to be a tragic police shooting that caused the death of a woman who had severe mental illness.
schizophrenia, schizoaffective, one of those types.
Esi (29:17)
Hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (29:17)
And what happened was that the police, her family had called the police to help her because she was in crisis. And they called the police for help. And because she was in an active crisis and at that time, the police took her, she’s a black woman, took her as aggressive and threatening and wound up shooting her and killing her. So it became
Esi (29:36)
cheese.
Christian F. Nunes (29:36)
this big huge uproar and it was all over the
the nation about this woman who Michelle Clusa was her name who was killed in in the in the in the process of having crisis response because typically how it works is that if the ones there’s a concern for danger or like dangerous self danger to others. you know crisis counselors typically are not they always have police as a backup, you know, but sometimes police get there first, depending on how the calls route it, right? Their nine one one system. and so
It it just created a problem. So through the process of being commissioner, the commission we decided that we wanted to look into this better, look into how police and Phoenix, we focus specifically on the Phoenix, responded, were responding to mental health crises. Like what was going on? What were the issues? What were the challenges? So myself and another colleague really just worked through and co-authored the survey.
Creating questions
Esi (30:29)
Hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (30:30)
that were really important. We built our social workers. and we really hashed it through, and then we had it go to our our commission, and our commission viewed it, and we went through as a whole commission. And then after that, we actually started going out to the police departments throughout the city. and you know, conducting these surveys with the police department, as well as we conducted the surveys with, you know, members who were receiving.
mental health services for a a more SMI type of diagnosis. So that’s what they call it in Arizona SMI serious mental illness. which just means it’s like you know more I would I would say higher risk, higher needs is really what it is, right? and so from those two those surveys we did on the police, what they felt about responding to it, what they felt like they needed, what were the challenges, et cetera, what their thoughts or their knowledge was. And then the same a different survey was altered to just ask then the community
How do you feel when the police respond? What do you feel? What do you see? We took those results and and came up with, you know, basically what we’re identifying as the main issues with crisis response and created recommendations. And so how we did it was we held a with the mayor who was we were on this commission, we held a town hall that was open to the community. And then we had members speak that represented all the community member leaders speak on the panel.
Representing all different ways that they work in the community. and and and then also an advocate and a person with experience. and then from their recommendations were drafted of how to respond going forward. Like, well, what are what is needed? More training. What you know, training not just in, you know, crisis response, training in cultural diversity, training in empathy, training, you know, all these different trainings
that
Esi (32:11)
Mmm.
Christian F. Nunes (32:12)
need to come from it. So that’s what we did. It was really a great experience. And one of the things I would say is that, you know, many you know, law enforcement want to be able to respond the best way. they want to make great decisions, you know, and and feel like they’re prepared to respond. And you know, community members want to feel safe with the police. So everyone’s really coming out for the ultimate same goals, but different ways.
Esi (32:38)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (32:38)
So
being able to take the survey results and figure out what are these things we’re identifying are the main issues and then giving recommendations, you know, back to the city so that they can move in and move in the direction to move with the law enforcement.
Esi (32:50)
What really, I mean, a lot struck me by that kind of experience. But one thing that really struck me is that the of the results are saying that the police wanted to do the right thing, but didn’t have the resources and the tools to be able to do so.
Christian F. Nunes (33:07)
Yeah, and I think, you know, that’s very common for most people, right? Because we know ignorance, lack of knowledge is also is the main one some of the biggest contributors to harm, right?
Esi (33:18)
Mm.
Christian F. Nunes (33:19)
it’s i you know, malicious intent is is not as high as people think it is. It’s
Esi (33:24)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (33:25)
really like lack of knowledge, lack of information, fear, ignorance. Those are the things that really create this harm. And so I think just just like the police, I think most
different sectors want to do the right thing, they don’t know the information. They don’t know how, right? And what happens is there’s this paralysis of like, I don’t know what to do, so I’ll do nothing. You know, instead of like
Esi (33:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (33:49)
saying, I don’t know what to do, let me figure out what would help. It’s just this paralysis of like, well, I guess I’ll do nothing. But doing nothing creates more harm because then
Esi (33:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (33:59)
the harm that started is still perpetuating and getting stronger and stronger and stronger.
And nobody’s getting any repair. Nobody’s getting any repair, you know. so you know, yeah. So I think it’s it’s really interesting to see that if you really ask people, people want to know what’s the best way. They want to
Esi (34:15)
Absolutely.
Christian F. Nunes (34:16)
know the best thing. You just have to ask them and then they have to be willing to then take it past. I don’t know, let me get myself educated.
Esi (34:23)
Yeah.
And I think that’s, I think that in itself is, a great place to start with the knowledge that people want to, they just
Christian F. Nunes (34:31)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (34:32)
need to be offered the right option to be able to do that.
Christian F. Nunes (34:35)
Absolutely.
Esi (34:36)
And I see that happen so much in my training. So my training being kind of disability inclusion training for
Christian F. Nunes (34:42)
Uh-huh.
Esi (34:43)
organisations. Quite often the clients that hire me, they’re kind of EDI leaders.
in charge of implementing the policies of disability
Christian F. Nunes (34:52)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (34:52)
inclusion. So the actual delegates that I train are quite often line managers, hiring managers, HR teams. And so often when we’re kind of in these conversations about how the training is going to be rolled out, my clients say to me, I’m so worried that nobody’s going to sign up. And I said, don’t
Christian F. Nunes (35:09)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (35:10)
worry. Don’t worry because people actually, they want to do this. It’s just that they haven’t had an option.
And I think the
Christian F. Nunes (35:15)
Right.
Esi (35:15)
thing is people are scared to ask because they don’t want to be seen as not knowing the answer already. So one of the first things we do in our sessions is we start by saying every question is a great question. There are no terrible questions. And even if you don’t know how to phrase it, just ask it in whatever way you want to. And then we can unpack it from there.
Christian F. Nunes (35:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I I totally agree, Esi. And I would also add, sometimes people don’t speak up because they’re fearful of speaking up, because they don’t want to be seen as the agitator, right?
Esi (35:45)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (35:45)
Or the troublemaker or the difficult one. And so they won’t say anything, you know. And so I think that’s another layer added on why people don’t speak up, not just not knowing excuse me, the language, but then also like, well, if I do say something, what are they gonna think about me?
Esi (36:02)
Yeah, 100%.
Christian F. Nunes (36:02)
And how will this affect you?
Esi (36:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it’s so I completely agree with you. So it’s so important to kind of state that at the beginning that this is a psychologically safe environment. And this is an actual safe environment for you to ask. And I said, chances are, whatever you ask, everybody else is thinking about anyway. And,
Christian F. Nunes (36:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Esi (36:22)
you know, we could, we set and I’m sure you do this as well. But just an example of
kind of one question from one person is what the majority of people are quite often thinking is that
Christian F. Nunes (36:34)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (36:34)
we enable people to ask their questions anonymously. And then people
Christian F. Nunes (36:37)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (36:38)
can vote. And the up votes are also massive because it is what everybody wants to know.
Christian F. Nunes (36:45)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And one other thing I think is important to just creating that environment. And you know, I we used to call it safe space, like safe space agreements, making sure that when you’re having these trainings or these conversations that you have these agreements about how people r respect each other, treat each other, acknowledge things. But recently, this past year, I’ve got introduced to a but
Brave space, right? Brave space agreements. And brave space agreements are very safe space agreements, but they’re also focusing on the part that difficult difficult conversations have to be had, right? That you have to get some discomfort in order to fix a problem, that you have to be able to name what’s needs to be named. And I think that brave space agreements are so important when you’re entering the space or trying to create equity.
because there are gonna be things that are gonna be named that are gonna be very difficult to hear. They’re gonna be very shocking to hear. What here? And this place? Yes, hit this place, you know. Yes, it is happening here. And so, and it has to be creating a space where people can name it and say it.
Esi (37:49)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (37:50)
and that people are willing to listen and not get defensive and listen and then ask questions about.
Tell me about the experience. What has happened? Did anyone help you? No, so that you can find out what’s really, really going on.
Esi (38:03)
Yeah, I love that. So I think we’ve done a bit of a Swap share here. So you have taken invisible backpack. I’m taking brave spaces. I love that. Yeah, let’s do it. Brilliant. Excellent.
Christian F. Nunes (38:14)
Yeah, let’s do it. Yeah.
Esi (38:19)
So
we’re coming towards the end of our episode today and there’s so much information that I think our audience will have lapped up and be able to immediately implement but also think about how to kind of strategically think about it. But if there’s, let’s say two things.
maybe two is quite difficult, it’s a challenge, but if there are kind of a group of things you would like people to walk away with knowing or doing as a result of listening today, what would they be?
Christian F. Nunes (38:47)
Yeah,
I love this question. well, the first thing I would say is, you know.
Do your own self-reflection. Do your own organisational reflection and think about, you know, are we really create living up to our mission and our vision and an environment where people want to work, where people want to be, where people want to belong. And that’s the first part. I think you have to be able to be willing to and then be really open to the feedback you get from that, right?
Like you have to ask those questions. You can’t just you have your self-reflection, then you gotta ask them. That’s the second part. Then asking everybody and being willing to receive whatever
feedback you get as an important part. The other thing is is that you have to be invested. You know, change is not one off. Change is a process, growth is
Esi (39:38)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (39:38)
a process. So if you really are invested in creating a place of work a workplace that is has equality, right?
or equity as best as possible, then you have to be willing to do the work. You cannot short step it. You cannot do something one year and wait three years to do part two. You have to be committed to the process. You have to be committed to engaging and then follow through and sustaining it. Like even after training’s end, even after your consultants leave, you have to have a plan in place that you’re going to continue to sustain it. You know,
I think that is so, so, so critical, so critical. And you know, and and don’t be afraid to hear you know, to hear things that are named that are difficult. Get get a little
Esi (40:19)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (40:20)
just get a little uncomfortable. I want you to get a little uncomfortable. The only way we can create equity is for people to get a little uncomfortable. Because people
Esi (40:26)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (40:27)
who have these lived experiences, who are go facing oppressions, who are facing systemic inequalities, that deal with this every single day in their lived experience, they don’t have the option, right? But if you have
Esi (40:38)
Absolutely.
Christian F. Nunes (40:39)
the option.
because of privilege or a place, a position, a power, then you need to get uncomfortable a little bit yourself so that you can have some empathy about why this is so important for you to change this workplace and this group. And
Esi (40:52)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (40:54)
you know, it’s it’s no one’s perfect, but the commitment, the willingness to get uncomfortable and have discomfort and with things people are naming that do not speak perfection, because perfection does not exist, that’s a good start.
Esi (41:08)
So thank you so much. think they were really powerful and really things that people can immediately hopefully identify with and be able to take away. I
Christian F. Nunes (41:15)
Mm. Yes.
Esi (41:17)
think it’s so important what you were saying about people being able to sit in their discomfort and especially what you saying about it’s a privilege that we can choose to walk away because depending on what our identity is, depending on what our experiences are, depending on what our intersectional barriers are, we can’t walk away from these things.
Christian F. Nunes (41:35)
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely. And so owning that privilege and using that privilege to change, right?
Esi (41:43)
Mm.
Christian F. Nunes (41:43)
Using that privilege to create safety, using that privilege to create access and equity and inclusion. That’s how you use your privilege to best, you know, to be best.
And
so yeah, people gotta be able to understand that if you have it, don’t you know, you have it. So you you know, you sometimes you’re born in it. You don’t you don’t have a choice, but you can use it, right? You could
Esi (42:04)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (42:05)
be a co-conspirator and ally. So use it the right way, you know, use it the right way. And you don’t have to rock around saying, I’m using my privilege. Just know you have it, you know,
Esi (42:14)
Yeah? Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (42:15)
and and then apply it, apply it accordingly to ways of healing.
Esi (42:18)
Yeah and maybe you know acknowledge
those parts that you don’t know how to do and then reach out for support. There are so many people in your organisation,
Christian F. Nunes (42:24)
Right. Absolutely.
Esi (42:28)
in your community that want to support and want to help if you’re willing to do the work.
Christian F. Nunes (42:35)
And that if you’re willing is the biggest part right? ‘Cause there are people
Esi (42:37)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (42:38)
there, you’re there, I’m here. There’s the th thousands, tens of thousands of us who are who are dedicated to this work, right? But people have to be willing to, you know, ask. Yeah.
Esi (42:50)
Yeah, 100%, 100%.
And not kind of, I suppose it’s, mean, I don’t have any children, but people say all the time, there’s never the right time to have a child. There’s never a right time to kind of do the right thing. There’s always something happening. So you’re not waiting
Christian F. Nunes (43:04)
Absolutely.
Esi (43:05)
for that perfect moment after this project is over, or when this new CEO comes in, you do it now.
Christian F. Nunes (43:11)
Absolutely. Absolutely. You do it
Esi (43:13)
Hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (43:14)
when it’s brought up and and you’re not waiting. Yes, absolutely.
Esi (43:17)
Yeah,
yeah. And something else you mentioned in the kind of the things that you would, the tips you would give people to take away reminded me that, or kind of made me think about organisations, they like to separate out their kind of strategies. So this year we’re going to do disability, next year we’ll do race, the year after we’ll do age. People, know, one thing we haven’t discussed today is intersectionality.
The fact that people
Christian F. Nunes (43:42)
Mm.
Esi (43:42)
are intersectional, you we might be all three of those things. So
Christian F. Nunes (43:46)
Right.
Esi (43:46)
if the organisation is separating them out, then at least two of those identities are being ignored for maybe
Christian F. Nunes (43:53)
Right.
Esi (43:54)
a number of years.
Christian F. Nunes (43:55)
Right. And and unintentionally you also are prioritizing identities, which is creating more inequality. Right.
Esi (44:00)
Yeah, I’m totally good. Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (44:05)
So you don’t want to prioritize identities saying, Well, we’re gonna focus on this one this year because that’s more important. No, it’s not.
it’s not. Anytime a person’s experiencing oppression, it’s you know, it’s oppression, period, right?
And if this person’s experiencing depression in one area of the workplace, I guarantee you somebody else is experiencing depression in the other part of the workplace, right? Audrey Lorde was this great poet, social worker, educator, author. and she has this saying that said, I am not free if one woman is unfree, even if her shackles are very different from my own.
Esi (44:42)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (44:43)
And I I that is one of the most profound quotes that I always reflect on because I think about that in the work that I do.
Esi (44:50)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (44:51)
It’s it’s like I don’t have to personally understand the the identity or identify with the identity or understand the oppression the person’s experiencing, but I have to be committed to changing it and stopping it. I have to be
Esi (45:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (45:05)
committed to creating creating inclusion.
Esi (45:08)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (45:08)
I
have to be committed to creating peace and liberation for everybody because then I know that if one of us have it, especially those the most marginalized have it, everybody’s gonna benefit, right? When we target the most marginalized, we’re targeting everybody’s gonna have a benefit from it. So everyone’s gonna feel it. And so I think of that all the time with the work that I do. It’s like it’s not for me to have the personal experience myself, but it’s to have the empathy to know.
then nobody should have to have the experience of feeling like they don’t matter or they’re not valued or they’re not seen or to be subjugated to things because of their identities. Intersectionality is so very important. And just recognizing that you treat everything equally, you honor intersectionality and you’re moving in that direction.
Esi (45:54)
100 % 100 % I don’t want to ruin that by adding anything on so but yeah, one completely completely agree. So one question that I asked, I’ve started asking my guests is,
Christian F. Nunes (46:07)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (46:08)
if you were talking to yourself at the beginning of your career, what would you say to yourself?
Christian F. Nunes (46:15)
Mm-hmm.
don’t be afraid to rock the boat for equality or equity.
Esi (46:18)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (46:19)
So
I’m gonna rephrase that. That’s what I would tell myself, right? Because I know I have been in so many experiences where I felt the micro I mean, the gender microaggressions, the racial microaggressions.
Esi (46:31)
Mm.
Christian F. Nunes (46:31)
I felt it, right? And I just would not say anything because I felt like I needed the job or I didn’t want to be that one that the people were pointing out saying, she’s always making about race, even though I knew it was racist, right?
Esi (46:44)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (46:45)
And that wasn’t my early career. But as I got further in my career, I I don’t I’m not afraid to rock the boat. Like I’m not afraid to call it out. I’m not afraid to name it. And yes, you may see me as a certain way, but it’s not that I’m doing that. But how do we grow? How do we get better if we don’t name it to so we can affix it? So
Esi (47:00)
Yeah.
Christian F. Nunes (47:00)
I that’s what I would tell myself in my early career. Don’t be afraid to rock the boat for equality and equity.
Esi (47:05)
equality.
yeah. No, I love that. I agree. And I think, you know, I’ve been on similar path in my kind of learning journey of kind of
being true to myself as well
Christian F. Nunes (47:18)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (47:19)
so I I face oppressions in lots of ways as well and even you know even now I sometimes I think well you I know that that was racist or I know that that was ableist or I know you didn’t do that because I’m a wheelchair user so you chose to add ask somebody who you felt would give you a better
Christian F. Nunes (47:38)
Uh-huh.
Esi (47:38)
answer or whatever it is
And I do still feel that sometimes when I name it I’m almost gaslighted and looked upon like no you you got it wrong You got it wrong, but I think it’s it’s so important Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean was nice the way I said it. Yes. I’m being gaslighted when it’s happening
Christian F. Nunes (47:51)
You probably are gaslighted. I would agree. Yeah. Yeah.
Esi (47:58)
but It’s still I think it’s still important to say it and I think
Christian F. Nunes (48:03)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (48:03)
in that for me in those situations
Even though that person might look upon me differently, I don’t care actually because they’ve done it to me in the first place. So, you know, why do I care what they actually, you know, I don’t want to be their best friend.
Christian F. Nunes (48:16)
Right. And and also you’re doing it for your own validation of
Esi (48:19)
Mm.
Christian F. Nunes (48:19)
what you experienced and what you know is true. And and I think that’s also so important is that we do that for our validation and and we’re not afraid to do those things anymore.
Esi (48:29)
Absolutely. you know, we are the ones that need to sleep at night. We are
Christian F. Nunes (48:33)
Mm-hmm.
Esi (48:33)
the ones that need to be able to close our eyes and be proud of ourselves in that day.
Christian F. Nunes (48:38)
Yes.
Esi (48:40)
Where can people find out about you and get in touch with you?
Christian F. Nunes (48:43)
Yes, absolutely. so Equity Bound Solutions LLC is based in the United States, but I do work globally. you can reach me at my website address, which is actually the name of the organisation. So it’s www.equity e-q-u-i-t-y bound B-O-U-N-D solutions, s-o-l-u-t-i-o-n-s dot com.
So you can reach me there. I also have I’m on LinkedIn as well. I’m able to be reached at LinkedIn as well. So either
Esi (49:15)
Mm-hmm.
Christian F. Nunes (49:16)
of those places you can find me. and yeah, I’m I’m open and willing to work with anyone and collaborate on things and also be able to, you know, come in and provide service.
Esi (49:26)
Brilliant. So we’re to put all that information in the show notes as well so that anyone that wants to get hold of you will be able to quite quickly. Is there
Christian F. Nunes (49:33)
Wonderful. Yeah.
Esi (49:34)
anything else you would like our audience to know before we say goodbye?
Christian F. Nunes (49:38)
Yeah, I just really want to thank you, Esi, for this podcast. I it is such an important podcast. and it really talks about the reality of equality, right? And I love that it’s called the quality edit because it’s like we gotta fix some stuff, right? So I just
Esi (49:51)
Thanks for watching.
Christian F. Nunes (49:52)
thank you for creating this space and this opportunity to talk about these conversations that, you know, many times people don’t talk about and the work that you’re doing as well. Thank you.
Esi (50:01)
Thank you very much for saying that. I’m really glad that it’s kind of making a mark. So yeah, thank you very much. Thank you so much for joining me on the episode today. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you so much, viewers and listeners for tuning in yet again. And as I’ve said before, if there are any topics in the equality space that you would like to know more about, or if you’re stuck with anything in the workplace,
Please drop us a line because we’d love to kind of create an episode around it And if you know anybody who would be a really good guest On the podcast, please also drop us a line. Let us know But until next time have a really good rest of your day. Thank you very much everyone. Bye
Christian F. Nunes (50:49)
Bye.