Episode Summary
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Transcript
Esi Hardy (01:10)
Hello and welcome everybody. Thank you very much for joining us again to another episode of the Equality Edit.
where we unpack equality one story at a time. Today is really lovely weather. And today I’m joined by a guest, Nzinga, who’s going to talk to you about why equality is important to her. And we’re going to talk about subjects to do with lived experience and how we bring that to reality and also kind of inclusive communication and subjects around that.
So without any further ado, I’ll hand over to Nzinga to introduce herself. Hello, thank you so much for joining me today.
Nzinga Orgill (01:50)
Hello listeners. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, you are right. The sun is out. It’s out by me. And hopefully the sun is out by all of our listeners as well. It’s wonderful to be here. My name is Nzingul Orgyil. I am founder and CEO of AVI2I and we are all about responsible, inclusive communication.
And we talk about communication, obviously it’s not just what we’re saying to each other, it’s also the environments that we create through our policies, process systems and our infrastructure. So it’s really almost taking what we have with existing DNI practices and taking it a step forward in terms of what that means that we do in our day to day as individuals through our own lens and filters. So yeah, that’s what I do and that’s me.
Esi Hardy (02:33)
That’s amazing and I’m really excited about the subject. So inclusive communication and inclusive language is something that I think is really important, especially not just but in the world of disability as well. I worked a lot in the public and social care sector.
in my career and I worked in the charity sector and disability charities and so often they used to use language that disempowered disabled people and you know built up or kind of reinforced the stereotypes around disability and I used to be so much work in the organisations that I worked with around you know the importance of considering the language you used.
and considering its impact on the people around you, not just the disabled people around them, but the general public who would be influenced by the language they’d be using.
Nzinga Orgill (03:23)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, for me, I’ve spent quite a lot of time in the diversity, inclusion, equality space. And the thing that keeps coming up for me is the use of language and how we communicate. And, you know, I go so far as to say, obviously, language has been very much centered around the lived experience of the majority and those who are
Esi Hardy (03:42)
Mm.
Nzinga Orgill (03:43)
often not marginalized. And it’s about really, you know, understanding how we can bring everybody into all conversations.
And I love the point you made, Esi around impact. My goodness. know, responsible, inclusive communication is really about that. It’s about taking what you’re intending in terms of what you’re saying and linking it to the impact it has on those you are saying it to and to the communities that you’re serving. You know, we’ve got a lot of amazing people saying some wonderful things, but actually, what does it mean for those that are impacted? How are they left feeling? What type of culture does it create? So it’s really important to…
fully understand this and how you can be a part of making sure you’re responsibly and inclusively communicating.
Esi Hardy (04:22)
That’s so interesting,
How do you start kind of those conversations and that work with organizations?
Nzinga Orgill (04:28)
It’s a great question. So, you know, my background is aviation. I’ve done a lot in terms of project management, learning and development. I’ve been involved in innovation projects and I’ve been in operational management. I think it’s fair to say wherever my career has taken me, it’s been very much around, you know, prioritizing the interests and the experiences of people, whether they’re employees, whether they’re customers, whether they’re supply chain, whether they’re our community.
and every single space I’ve occupied, what’s always come up has been communication. In particular around responsible inclusive communication, when I set up my consultancy around five years ago, and I was going in and delivering some really great DEI training, DEI facilitation in many organizations that were wondering what they could do to move the agenda forward. The training was landing, the information was doing what it needed to do, but what was coming up was actually
particular experiences. And I’ll give you an example. I did a training around, you know, cultural competence and being inclusive. And the session was very well received. People felt empowered in terms of what it was all about. And it really raised the level of awareness in terms of the understanding behind it. However, there were particular instances within the teams that were attending that session where there had been interactions that hadn’t gone particularly well. And
Yes, it’s great they understand what cultural competence is, but what does that mean in terms of the individuals who have to then go out there and engage with other people and have conversations and have interactions? What does it mean for those individuals? And I recall someone coming over and saying to me, like, I know now what cultural competence means and I understand it, but I just don’t know how to even start a conversation. I don’t know how to even repair potentially a relationship that might have been damaged because of the lack of cultural competence.
what can I do because I have the awareness but now I don’t have the tools to implement that awareness in a way that will get the outcome that I want. So based on that Esi and based on that being multiple conversations, I thought there needs to be some stuff, some framework, some support
Esi Hardy (06:33)
Mm.
Nzinga Orgill (06:33)
around what people can do. So on the back of that, I created a framework, which is the three Rs, and they’re quite simple. And anyone who knows me first of all will know that I do love
First of all, things in threes or fours, preferably threes. I do like acronyms. I’m from an airport background, so everything was heavily acronymed. But as a responsible, inclusive communicator, I know that not everybody understands acronyms, so it’s important that I explain them. So whilst I am saying three Rs, I will tell you what those Rs are. And
Esi Hardy (07:01)
Brilliant, thank you.
Nzinga Orgill (07:03)
I just think it’s a really simple way of people being able to respond in the live moment of when things are happening in a way that doesn’t panic them, overwhelm them.
but then empowers them and allows them to get the most out of the interaction. So the three R’s are as follow. The first R is about reading the room. And when I talk about reading the room Esi, I don’t just mean reading the room in terms of the environment that you’re around. I don’t just mean read the room in terms of the people you might be communicating with. Reading the room is also about reading Esi, reading who I am.
reading what’s going on with me in that given moment, what filters and what lens am I approaching this communication through? Because let’s be real, we’re all humans. There are going to be days where we’re probably better at communicating than other days. And it’s worth acknowledging that. So first of all, read the room and understand, is this the right time and place to have this conversation? Now, sometimes there might not be a choice in the situation and you do need to act in that moment. But other times it might be a case of, well, I know Esi’s had a really tough day today.
and to have this conversation now probably wouldn’t do it the justice that it needs to be done. So let me find a space and a time to pick this up. So that’s the first thing to read the room, read the environment, read the people, read yourself, and then really have a think about what you want to say. So the second R is respond. And this is, for example, if you and I are having an exchange, something’s come up and it’s not necessarily gone particularly well and you thought, hold on a minute, Nzinga, let me just read the room, read myself.
read the environment, read you, and then let me respond. And the reason why I say respond is because respond is being really thoughtful and intentional about what comes after that initial communication. It’s not reacting, and that’s what we often do, even though we think it’s responding, we react to something, whether it’s an emotion, whether it’s in the feeling, and it might be a litigant reaction, but what’s important is we take the time to self-regulate. So, Esi you know,
is in a conversation with Nzinga and Nzinga said something that kind of upset Esi. Is Esi reacting to that or is she taking the time to self-regulate and to respond? Because
responding
Esi Hardy (09:04)
Mm-hmm.
Nzinga Orgill (09:05)
is important. It gives you the confidence to know that you are actually really listening to what’s being said and being considerate and thoughtful about the response that then happens. And the third R is if it ever goes there. So there might be an instance where you and I have an exchange and actually I don’t want to talk to you no more and you don’t want to talk to me.
is understanding how to repair the relationship. And, Esi when I talk about repair, I don’t mean you and I are now best friends and we’re kiki-ing away and life is great. I mean that we find a way of amicably working together. We find a way of repairing the relationship and being able to build back what was lost in trust. Or we find a way of just saying, right, this is where we are in terms of where we want the relationship to be, which might mean in some instances there is no interaction and there is no engagement.
Esi Hardy (09:49)
Okay.
Nzinga Orgill (09:49)
But…
What is important is it’s communicated and it’s understood. You know, I’ve been in instances where I’ve supported organizations and I’ve coached people through Youth in the Three R’s and the repair bit hasn’t always been fully done. So whilst there has been a response, we don’t know where the relationship sits. Are we on speaking
Esi Hardy (10:07)
Yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (10:07)
terms? Are we not speaking? Are we still upset?
Esi Hardy (10:10)
Okay, right.
Nzinga Orgill (10:11)
Are we back to a good place? And it is so important because ultimately it will then dictate and decide how you communicate with that individual going forward. But I think that’s one framework that I’ve used on quite a few occasions that people have found really, really helpful and something that I definitely use all the time.
Esi Hardy (10:27)
I think that framework is brilliant. recently, just a side note on language, I try and avoid the word actually because I’m like, actually, that was really good. And it sounds like, I didn’t expect it to be good. And you surprised me. So I avoid actually, but I think that framework, it’s so, it’s tangible, it’s relatable. And it’s not just relatable for conversations you’re having with others. It’s also, I think, relatable for
how you can handle yourself and look after yourself as a person, can’t you? Read, I think is so, so helpful. Read yourself before you start. You know, how am I feeling today? The amount of times I’ve gone into a room, whether it’s a digital space or an actual room where I haven’t realized, I’ve realized really quickly I didn’t take the time to prepare myself.
And I haven’t kind of read myself to network in the, the most, I don’t mean the most professional, like I’m unprofessional, but to get the most out of it as I possibly can, or I’m not in the right frame of mind. And then to kind of see from other people how they’re managing in the space as well. I also, mean, respond is really helpful, but the last one, repair, I think that’s so helpful as well. think that quite often that’s something that I miss out personally.
quite often, it’s so easy to just, you know, I’ll avoid that bit because that’s where the sticky icky bits come from. And when we talk about people in the workplace as well, I can see this is, this must be so tangible and helpful to enable line managers to feel confident in that space to go on and have conversations with people.
Nzinga Orgill (12:01)
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the intention behind it, Esi You it’s not about making it overly complicated so people feel scared to use it or don’t really know how to apply it. It’s about really breaking it down so it’s useful and it’s a good, you know, gauge to check in with when you are having those
Esi Hardy (12:18)
Mmm.
Nzinga Orgill (12:18)
conversations. And much like yourself, repair for me is probably out of the three R’s, the one that’s
stands out the most to me because that’s probably why we’re not having as many inclusion conversations as we should be. Because there has been some type of fracture in a relationship or something that’s led to an uncomfortable interaction that’s meant the relationship isn’t where it needs to be. And I think through repair means we can continue to have those conversations. So it’s a really important part of the whole interaction that is often overlooked.
And people
Esi Hardy (12:52)
Mmm.
Nzinga Orgill (12:53)
will prefer to avoid then to step in and say, right, know, I upset Esi, can I go over and repair that relationship and be prepared for whatever that repair looks like? Or am I going to dodge her every time she walks into the restroom for a coffee because I don’t know what to say to her? Or am I going to
Esi Hardy (13:09)
Yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (13:10)
find a way of excluding her from interactions or from projects or from meetings or from spaces that I have to occupy because I am so uncomfortable?
Esi Hardy (13:18)
Yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (13:19)
That’s kind of where it really sits, Esi the whole uncomfortable piece, because responsible, inclusive communication is uncomfortable. But the intention behind that discomfort is that it creates comfort for majority and all of us, rather than discomfort for those that the ones that might need to have the conversation, and also long-term discomfort for those who are really willing for the impact to be beneficial to the culture that they’re part of.
Esi Hardy (13:43)
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And just going back to what you were saying about kind of what are the the kind of the knock on effects not having those conversations in the workplace as you articulated the knock on effect is that person doesn’t get invited to the to the meeting to the strategy meeting. Therefore, they’re never put forward for the project because they’re not showing how innovative they are. Therefore, they never get that promotion. And also, I think that that encourages that stereotype.
thinking as well. you know, I spoke to Esi and she was quite annoying. She didn’t do what I wanted her to do. Therefore, all disabled mixed race people are probably like that too. Whether that’s conscious or unconscious, that happens over and over again.
Nzinga Orgill (14:27)
Absolutely. Now let’s be real, leaders like to feel comfortable. They like to feel that they’re doing the right thing. In fact, we all like to feel comfortable. You know, we are so happy to be told we’re doing a great job or things are going the way that we want them to because it’s natural thing. We want to feel good about the things that we’re doing. There might be things that we need to work on and that’s the uncomfortable space that not many of us like to occupy. know, no one wants to be told, Esi, that communication didn’t land particularly well or maybe the impact you were thinking of having was the impact that was had and felt.
And I think it’s about leaning into that because ultimately if you’re a person that’s leading people, it’s always going to change. You you might attempt to do the right thing for everybody, but there are going to be some people who again, if we are conscious about them being individual, will have different lenses and different filters, so therefore different experiences. For me,
Esi Hardy (15:12)
See?
Nzinga Orgill (15:13)
with the three R’s, the intention is where possible to really do as much due diligence before you’re having that communication exchange. You you won’t always mitigate against their being
conversation that doesn’t land particularly well. But what it means is you can say, well, actually going into this, I really tried to make sure I was aware of the situation and circumstance of the people and myself. You know, as you responded, I really took the time and care to think about the impact of my words on the individual I was responding to. And now because it hasn’t landed well, I’m really conscious about wanting to bring this back to a place where we can operate and get what we need out of our interaction. And, you know, when we think about
what that means for business. I can sit here and talk to you about the business case for DEI and why it’s so important. And to be fair, Esi, as a responsible, inclusive communicator, it isn’t even about me telling you why you should be doing it. It should be me telling you what you’re missing out on in not doing it.
Esi Hardy (16:04)
Okay.
Nzinga Orgill (16:05)
You absolutely are missing out on people not being invited to strategy meetings. You’re losing talent. You’re getting disengaged employees. You’re getting high attrition rates, high sickness, high grievance processes.
talent ain’t gonna want to come to your organization because guess what, you’re not responsible and inclusive in how you communicate. So therefore, people don’t want no part of it. And we already know that the younger generation prioritize it and it’s important to them. So
Esi Hardy (16:28)
not fitting up to it, yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (16:30)
there are so many reasons why we shouldn’t be thinking about not having it. But again, because it centers around leaning into what is uncomfortable, people find other ways to go around it or other ways to ensure that it’s in place.
Esi Hardy (16:43)
Mm hmm. So true. So true. And I think something that you said that kind of as a leader, it’s our responsibility and leaders responsibility to lean into this because the clue is in the title leading you’re leading the way.
It is about the kind of if you if you prepare yourself ahead of the conversation, then you’re more, you know, you’re more equipped to handle it in the right way or kind of move it forward in the right way. So I also loved what you were saying about kind of preparing yourself before you go into a conversation.
I mean, we’re not always going to get it right. know, things happen and we don’t know what the other person is going to say. We don’t we don’t know what else is going to be triggering for the other person. But knowing that we have prepared ourselves, hopefully that will come across in our body language and how we show up in that room. So the other person, when moving into the repair stage, will understand that it came from.
a place of wanting to do the right thing and there was no malice behind it as well.
Nzinga Orgill (17:45)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s a brilliant point, Esi. We haven’t all got hours and hours to prepare for every interaction we’re going to have. Reading isn’t about necessarily taking as long as you can possibly take. There might be some conversations that you know that are coming up that you do have the time and the foresight to prepare for. But it might be an interaction that’s just literally happening there and then. And so what I try and implement and encourage others to implement is, you
read the environment. if you’re having this conversation, it started off, look around you, take it all in as much as you can, and obviously be present in that conversation, but be mindful about what’s coming up for you, what might be happening with that individual. You might have a difficult conversation that’s happening because someone who you’re speaking to is going through a hard time. That would
Esi Hardy (18:29)
Mm-hmm.
Nzinga Orgill (18:29)
absolutely be something you would need to factor in before you even consider the response. So it’s about being able to do it live and in the moment.
Also, Esi, sometimes we are so caught off guard, we don’t have time to do anything. Let me be clear, it’s not every time I can apply the three R’s in every conversation. But what it can mean for me is I can go away and retrospectively think, OK, Nzinga, you read the room, but you probably didn’t read the room fully. You didn’t read yourself fully, you didn’t read the individual because there might be information you didn’t see in that moment, things that come to light later. So again, you’re able to think about your response.
or if you responded, build on that response, or if you responded and it’s caused an issue with the relationship, have that come in as part of the repair. So I’m saying it’s not always about getting it right and being prepared the first time, but it’s about being aware that it’s something that’s important to you and then bringing it in when you can to make sure that that communication is responsible and inclusive. Because the alternative, Esi, is irresponsible, exclusive communication, which is absolutely what we don’t
Esi Hardy (19:33)
And do you use this tool? I love this tool. Is this a tool that you invented yourself?
Nzinga Orgill (19:39)
So something that I’ve been exploring with, so there’ve been different iterations around like scanning the horizon or thinking about, you know, how to say things and how to structure things. But the three Rs is something that we’ve developed at ABI. So why? Because we thought, again, let’s be clear, it could be 10 Rs, Esi, if I really wanted it to be, but no one’s going to remember 10 Rs, are they? And, you know, whilst there’s a natural build on all of these Rs, for me,
When I was guiding and advising people, this felt like the three areas where they could really get some tangible benefits from the interactions that they were having. And, you know, it was a good, starting point. So, so yeah, you have to answer your question.
Esi Hardy (20:16)
really love it. It’s, you know, as you said, you can go on and have 10, 50 Rs but they’re
Nzinga Orgill (20:21)
you
Esi Hardy (20:21)
really tangible. They’re easy. You know, they’re not actually that hard to remember because they’re relatable to what we do without considering it anyway. So yeah, no, I love them. Thinking about kind of measuring success off the back of those or in general, is this something that is easily measured? And what success have you seen off the back of it in teams that you’ve worked with?
Nzinga Orgill (20:43)
It’s a great question. Ultimately, we know that the evidence for things around a not particularly inclusive culture would be showing up in your employee engagement surveys or some of the things I spoke about before around high attrition rates, high sickness, high grievance, things being escalated to employment tribunals and lack of talent.
With the work that we’re doing around the three Rs and also around the bigger programme of responsible and inclusive communication, we are seeing results. So organisations that take the time to obviously do the DEI work, but then build on it with how they communicate about it are finding higher engagement, are finding an increase in psychological safety, are then seeing…
people more inclined to come forward and share and not just wait for a yearly employee engagement survey to come out, but actually speaking to line managers or people they trust within the business about things that are coming up that can help to support and improve that culture. you know, sometimes it can be quite hard to measure if you’re not looking at the right places and spaces, but we’re absolutely seeing a benefit behind that. You know, I recently did a…
a webinar for the Association of Project Management because as someone who’s got a project management background, responsible, inclusive communication is so needed there because again, know, project management, yes,
Esi Hardy (22:05)
Thank you much.
Nzinga Orgill (22:06)
very, very important to have it being compliant and regulatory and done in the right way. But we’re also dealing with people and how we bring in different project teams at different levels in different life cycles is so, so important. And again, you know, through
carrying out their exercise, have already had feedback from individuals who attended the session that spoke about how much more open the project meetings were, how much they were able to risk mitigate sooner because guess what? People were raising concerns which they normally wouldn’t say because guess what? There is no responsible and inclusive communication. So the results are there and they’re there to be seen. It’s just, again, obviously focusing on what that looks like.
Esi Hardy (22:44)
Yeah, and looking at looking for them as well and knowing what questions to ask to get to them. Brilliant. Excellent. So I want to kind of talk more about you yourself really. I can tell you, like me, you’re really, really passionate about the work that you’re doing. So I’m finding through these conversations that there’s many different avenues that people have come to kind of their EDI work and their passion for EDI from either from lived experience,
Well, actually a lot of the time from lived experience and coming from that corporate space and thinking, you know what, I want to do things differently. I’m going to do it myself. But what is your story?
Nzinga Orgill (23:21)
first of all, my favourite subject Esi, so you might have to unplug
Esi Hardy (23:24)
Excellent.
Nzinga Orgill (23:25)
my mic or tell me to stop.
Esi Hardy (23:27)
I can’t
hear you, I’m so sorry, it’s cutting out.
Nzinga Orgill (23:30)
You can hear
me, but yeah, I think, do you know what? I’m not going to skip over this. I think my parents knew exactly what they were doing when they named me Nzinga. You know, it’s such an interesting journey because being named an African name, I’ve got Jamaican heritage in terms of parents, and I was born and raised in Birmingham. There was always a bit of a confusion around who I am, where I came from. And, you know, I’d encourage conversations to talk about me because again, it’s my favourite subject.
but I’d also be very aware of of the assumptions that were made because of my name and what I might present myself looking like physically. But for me, the journey started from quite young, from lived experiences, from interactions, spending time with parents. My father’s a Rastafarian. My mum has dreadlocks as well. Some of the prejudices in the encounters phase because of what people would look like. Also, my own lived experience, like at the moment, from a visual description,
black women I’ve got you know probably shoulder-length braids but I know when I change up and I have probably what would be deemed more Europeanized styles I’m received differently and the interactions I have are very very different and just then moving into spaces where it felt like I wasn’t necessarily embraced in the right way
like I mentioned, born and raised in Birmingham, so very culturally diverse city. I had friends from all different types of backgrounds. We all enjoyed connecting and spending time with each other. And when I moved to London, I think late 90s, early 2000s for university, because I went to central London to do law. And I realised how different the experience was because there were a lot less people like me and also just a couple of interactions where definitely wasn’t responsible and inclusive, but.
being eliminated from groups or spaces because my name is too difficult to pronounce or people couldn’t be bothered to learn it. And just therefore, for that reason, I wasn’t worth getting to know because my name was a barrier, which again was not a particularly pleasant experience. And then moving within the aviation sector and working my way up. I started frontline searching bodies and bags, loved the role, then was able to progress through the organization and take lots of different career paths.
all under one umbrella. And one thing I remember being really clear about is, as I got further up to senior leadership, how very much it didn’t look like me and how very much there weren’t spaces where I was able to kind of find a commonality through experience because a lot of the people were coming from a different perspective. Not to say just because you might be a fellow black woman, you would have the same perspective as me, but there might be some alignments around experience. found the conversations had with me about
performance, know, stretch and yes whilst you’re identified as top talent, Nzinga, you know, you need to do a little bit more to show that you’re ready for a role and opportunity to basically do the job before you get the job. You know, having to go in and almost renegotiate or push back on salary because I was being paid less than other people in my team whilst being a top performer. And all of these things I thought, this is my lived experience, but what is happening through this lived experience.
Nzinga Orgill (26:41)
Towards the latter part of my career at the airport, I was able to jump into an employee resource group and eventually lead it for a few years. And it was one of the most powerfully eye-opening experiences I’ve ever had, just in terms of how employee resource groups are linking to the broader business. So how they deal with, obviously, your HR, your people functions, but also other departments and the senior leaders, as well as the fact that employee resource groups are the voice of the community you serve.
So it’s really important you’re able to take those experiences, take those questions, take those queries, take those ideas and suggestions and platform them so they’re able to be put in front of, you know, individuals who are making decisions, who often are very disconnected from those who aren’t always heard and seen. And just through that experience, that kind of coincided with what happened around the pandemic, some of the things that we saw with the, you know, brutal murder of George Floyd.
It just opened up an avenue and an opportunity for the fact that we have to do more and we don’t have to wait for something to happen to do more. We need to be thinking about always being able to do more, dial up efforts where they’re required, but also center people on their different lived experiences. You know, to give you some examples, obviously, George Floyd impacted on everybody. You know, what that impact felt like might be different depending on what people look like or their proximity to, you know,
the agenda around race and racism, but it impacted on everybody. I did a session with our CEO about what it meant for the business and what it meant for people. And so many people from different backgrounds reached out about it because no matter what lens you were looking at it through, was heinous and it was very hard to kind of internalize. So that was one example. A second example was around the pandemic. you think about airports and often a lot of larger organizations.
Frontline teams are often those that are most at risk and danger in terms of how they interact with the public. They’re very much frontline and interacting with different people from different parts of the world. A lot of the frontline employees were from marginalised communities. So where you’re seeing those that are being ill because of the virus or being impacted on it, it was again quite disproportional in terms of
the demographics of those impacted holistically from an organisational perspective. So was really having conversations around, it’s not just about acknowledging something. What are we creating to support those individuals and support everybody who’s going through this? And then, you know, because of the impact of the pandemic on aviation, I left and I decided to set up my own business and I really centred and focused around driving that agenda forward, you know, delivering DEI training to some amazing organisations and really partnering with them to understand
they can really make the priority. But every time what kept coming up, Esi, was we’ve got the policies, we’ve got the strategy, we’ve got the vision, the mission, we’ve got the plan. How are we communicating was the issue. And just to say,
Esi Hardy (29:34)
Mm.
Nzinga Orgill (29:35)
you know, lot of organisations do have internal and external comms teams which do fantastic work, but they’re not necessarily best set in terms of skills to deliver on some of these things.
Esi Hardy (29:44)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
I think these organizations and businesses, assume that no matter what department, that they know everything there is to know within that subject. So the comms department knows everything they know about inclusive communication and being kind of culturally appropriate. But people have the experiences that they have. Not everybody can know everything.
Nzinga Orgill (30:10)
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it’s important to remind ourselves of that. And that’s why I never class myself as an expert. You know, I’ve got a lot of knowledge. I’ve got a lot of experience I’ve picked up through lived experience, through working with amazing clients and customers, through having an amazing network that share resources and useful tips. I’ve got access to those things. It doesn’t make me a certified expert because the landscape
Esi Hardy (30:32)
Mm-hmm.
Nzinga Orgill (30:33)
is always, always, always changing.
And, you know, it’s just constant.
reminder that we need to communicate better. know, fast forward from when I first set up my business and then I went out and worked with lots of organisations in the DEI space to more recently where the conversations have really centred around communication. You know, I do a lot of work with colleges and, you know, working with schools and understanding what young people are thinking about, you know, what it means to get into the education or correction into the employment space, you know.
having come from education, whether that’s from a college or university or from our apprenticeship. And it’s just, again, the lack of communication that’s responsible and inclusive is very much showing up there. I did
Esi Hardy (31:16)
Mm-hmm.
Nzinga Orgill (31:16)
a post not too long ago about Gen Zs in the workplace that lifted a video from a really great comedian that was kind of emphasizing a point and the amount of interaction I got. This post got over, I think, 30 million impressions and…
thousands of comments and interactions. And what for me was so interesting was first of all, it’s a very relevant conversation. And secondly, just the expectations around how people are showing up. So you had some people saying, well, Gen Zs need to pull their bootstraps up and put their devices down and come to work and hold a conversation and be present. And then you had other people saying, well, surely we should allow people to show up how they’re meant to show up and be authentic and create space and create room for them.
And it was just a really interesting conversation. again, what came up was the responsible, inclusive communication part. know, everybody, everybody at some point is going to be impacted by age. We’re going to have, you know, five generations if we haven’t already got them within the workplace. Are we ensuring we’re responsibly, inclusively communicating amongst each other? Probably
Esi Hardy (32:21)
Mm-hmm.
Nzinga Orgill (32:21)
not, because as you can see, there’s a high attrition rate for young people going into work and then leaving, you know.
And there’s disconnect between the priorities that they have and focus around sustainability and inclusion and maybe what the people that are currently in organizations are communicating of their priorities because again, it’s an area of discomfort. So we’re not really leading into it. So
Esi Hardy (32:40)
Mm-hmm.
Nzinga Orgill (32:40)
I think it’s such a really important space when we come back to communication and when we talk about what it needs to look like and how it needs to feel. And for me, that’s why, starting from
where I started in Birmingham to where I am now.
communication has been the main driver to really link all those things together. You know, can’t roll out a policy, a process, you can’t build something, you can’t create an experience unless you are communicating it in a responsible and inclusive way.
Esi Hardy (33:06)
I completely agree. We came on quite a journey through your lived experience. So I’m taking us back to the beginning when you were talking about kind of all the different experiences that you’ve had from kind of people leaving you out of rooms due to the fact your name is in quotes difficult. So I had
similar but different experiences to you. So I have a Rastafarian dad and a white mum. And my name obviously being Esi, I grew up in North Scotland and hated it because everybody else was called Leanne and Suzanne. And also I was the only mixed race person and I was the only disabled person. So all I wanted to do was fit in. And I felt that rather than fitting in, I stood out like a sore thumb.
I was very popular, but I think that’s more because I was different and I was hard to forget really. And also, you know, I was a nice person as well. But
Nzinga Orgill (34:01)
you
Esi Hardy (34:02)
you know, I think that that kind of for me, and I’m drawing it back to you, but for me, that kind of shaped the assumptions I want the assumptions I made about myself and what I wanted for myself in the future at the time. So my future being when I was 10 rather than eight.
And then when I was 15 rather than 10, that kind of future. But the assumptions about what other people would assume about me because of those things that I would assume about myself as well. But I’m thinking, from your experience, what you shared, did it ever make you resent those spaces and those people that were leaving you out?
Nzinga Orgill (34:37)
Oh yeah, absolutely. If I’m being really 100 % honest and transparent, which I think is very important, you know,
Esi Hardy (34:43)
Hmm.
Nzinga Orgill (34:44)
it was a case of the fact that you’re not including me and you’re not even trying because there’s something like her name, you know, there’s all kinds of things linked to self-worth, linked to, you know,
Esi Hardy (34:55)
Absolutely.
Nzinga Orgill (34:56)
am I not a good person? Am I not easy to kind of get on with? Why don’t people want
to bring me in? And it was almost like her resentment as in…
or I should be able to be invited in, I should be able to access these spaces, I should be able to connect with people. And then it became a thing of, well, where I’m not getting into spaces, I might just start creating my own spaces, might I? I start creating my own network, creating my own avenues in and building relationships with people who have access to those spaces. So if I’m not there myself, a representative for me and what I think of my perspectives is in that room. And I think it really, it encourages you to kind of think about things in a way of,
from an accessibility perspective because access isn’t always about physical access to something. Being able to get into it and reach it and then know view it and engage with it and I think for me, how do we think about that like well everything realistically you know every single space you won’t get access to A because you’re not invited because of who you are B because you’re not at the right level of seniority C because it’s not your industrial sector or D because people don’t know of you.
So I can really do what I can with all of those instances to make sure that if it’s not me, I know somebody who’s in there who might have a similar perspective or I know somebody who’s in those spaces that can communicate my own. But yeah, I think when you set up your business, and I’m sure you’ll know as well, Esi, you kind of start to bring together your own network and your own pool of really resourceful people. So whereas you might not be invited into those rooms initially, you are then brought in.
And then the conversation is I’m happy to be bought in, from a sustainable perspective, you’re not just going to bring me in one minute and then shoo me out the next. You know, I need to
Esi Hardy (36:32)
Yeah, it’s not tokenism. Yeah, yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (36:35)
be here all the time and there needs to be a presence here all the time. And then again, that’s the responsible inclusive communication piece because it’s very easy to kind of jump in and be like, hi, I’m here. You know, I can help you and then be happy to be gone the next day. It’s more a case of, well, I’m happy to be in here, but whatever I’m sharing with you is building a pipeline or.
a way of ensuring that this perspective or these perspectives are always being factored into these rooms. But absolutely, a lot of resentment. think partly because of how I was made to feel, but also how I felt about myself.
Esi Hardy (37:06)
Mm.
Nzinga Orgill (37:06)
I’m a much older woman now. I accept myself fully and wholly. I embrace who I am. I love the fact that I am very multifaceted, but also I’m very authentic.
I’ve tried to code shift and…
you know, or code switch even and, you know, shift it up and try and conform and fit in. And I realised I wasn’t, I wasn’t created to fit in. I was created to my path and be truthful in that. And one thing about me in terms of responsible, inclusive communication, it’s respectful. Even if it might be a challenging conversation, as someone who is an empath, I care about people and that’s everybody. But at the same time, there often needs to be a priority for those who are most suffering, who are not being
Esi Hardy (37:46)
Yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (37:47)
who are not being seen and that’s I guess where my alliance and my allegiance lies with so it’s about really kind of you know amplifying those voices but yeah very resentful initially now in absolute gratitude I get to do something that I am passionate about and that I care about and I’m making a difference and I’m allowing for other people to make a difference as well.
Esi Hardy (38:08)
I think kind of building on that resentment, I mean, because I have a lot of resentment about kind of things in my life and assumptions that people make about me and things that I can’t access in more than a physically disability way due to my experiences as a disabled person in my background. I think that builds who I am as a person.
So one thing that I always say is I’m a disabled person for many reasons, there’s political reasons to that, but also because I think it kind of builds the experiences that I have. wouldn’t have the experiences that I have if I wasn’t a disabled person. Hopefully I wouldn’t be running a disability inclusion consultancy unless I had that lived experience of disability. And yeah, I say hopefully because I would have different experiences. So I might think about it differently.
if I wasn’t disabled, but
Nzinga Orgill (38:55)
you
Esi Hardy (38:55)
you know, I can be proud of the experiences I have. Therefore, if other people want to certain things about me, then they can, but I know who I am as a person. But I completely agree with you about kind of being in the room and being present in that room in the right way. So not in a tokenistic way, like let’s wheel the wheelchair user in and then, you know.
mind the pun, what is this bringing in? How can she help us sustain this? And I don’t mind. I mean, it’s not very good business strategy, but I don’t mind if people take on my ideas as their own. I think, well, if people are taking on their ideas and they’re seeping them in, and they think they came up with it themselves, is that not just a
nod to me that I came up with a really good process and a really good way of people doing things.
Nzinga Orgill (39:40)
I love what this is because it really is, you create amazing stuff and you might share some powerful insights, not just fit to sit with Esi. The intention is to share it with people and if they’re using it they’re quoting it, like, whenever I hear anyone lynching the three R’s, my heart flutters. It’s not just,
Esi Hardy (39:55)
Yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (39:56)
they’re using a framework that we’ve created. It’s like they’re doing something that’s going to advance and change how they communicate and make it more responsible and inclusive. They are implementing and driving change.
Like that for me is the win. That for me is the bit that I kind of cling onto and hold onto. you
know, someone who gets out there and goes out there a lot, know, I’m on LinkedIn a lot, I’m connecting with colleagues in the space, I’m learning about what’s happening. I recently went to a D &I conference last week actually, and just some things that really reminded me of the importance of this work.
one
highlight was…
you know, to do this work, but not from a wounded place. You you
Esi Hardy (40:36)
Mm-hmm.
Nzinga Orgill (40:37)
want to make sure you’ve worked on those wounds to heal yourself. So obviously we have lived experience, but it can’t be, you know, the exclusion or the racism that I encountered that’s driving the conversation. It’s got to be the healed version of myself that’s processed and not necessarily dealt with it because it doesn’t just go away, but have a different association with that. So then I’m able to be of service to those who need to learn from me, you know.
Another great one
Esi Hardy (41:02)
We’re
Nzinga Orgill (41:03)
that really
Esi Hardy (41:04)
Mmm.
Nzinga Orgill (41:05)
jumped out at me was the absence of bad behaviour does not equate to good behaviour and inclusion. And I just thought, wow.
Esi Hardy (41:12)
Yeah, like two wrongs don’t
make it right kind of thing.
Nzinga Orgill (41:15)
just because you’re not doing something that’s deemed as discriminatory doesn’t mean you’re an inclusive leader because inclusive culture and doing something that
Esi Hardy (41:20)
Yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (41:24)
drives that whole inclusive culture and i just thought there’s so many people that are like well i’m not a racist or i’m not someone who’s sexist or i’m not homophobic or i don’t get involved yeah you don’t get involved like and that’s that’s
Esi Hardy (41:36)
good stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just not doing anything. Yeah, I sit down all the time because back in the day, so I set up celebrating disability in 2017. So people would say, we don’t discriminate. And I’m like, woopdeedo for you! You know, you don’t discriminate. Great. You’re sticking to the law. That excellent. So what are you going to do next? Oh, do we have to do anything else? Yes, you do.
Nzinga Orgill (41:57)
Like not discriminating, Esi is the bare bare of
it’s just that’s great. But what else are we doing? And then it’s allowing it to be easy and to be clear and to be where it can be enjoyable, because sometimes it’s worth it. It’s so uncomfortable. It’s it’s not enjoyable. But if you can try and find a way of.
making it enjoyable or making it relatable then it definitely definitely you know helps move the agenda forward. I’m a massive storyteller there’s been so many instances and experiences that I’ve had and sometimes when I tell them people are in absolute shock and horror and you know they are quite comical in some instances but I think wow this is my life but I feel I feel blessed to be able to take what might have been a negative story not necessarily make it a comedy sketch like some of it isn’t really that funny but
to make it relatable, add humour to it, but to get people to really think about, therefore, you know, what the implications are of not having that inclusive culture in place for individuals who are, again, constantly being left out and excluded.
Esi Hardy (42:54)
I agree with you as well. And when you turn
Nzinga Orgill (42:55)
you
Esi Hardy (42:56)
something, as you say, not every story can be a comedy sketch. But when you turn something that for you is not triggering enough to be really distracting, but something that’s meaningful and tangible into something else, I think the message does come across what you said. And also the message comes across that this is so ridiculous. This is so, because the way we’re telling the story shows kind of
the ridiculousness of what went on in that situation. And then it helps people think, well, of course, that’s a stupid way of doing things. Because how we’ve been able to kind of flip that on its head. I agree with what you were saying as well about kind of using that, almost like that trauma that we’ve been through and turning it into something that’s helpful for others.
So I suppose the way that I articulate that is lived experience coupled with professional solution-based approaches. So quite often people come to Celebrating Disability and they ask for motivational or inspirational talks. And I say no way, no how, no. And obviously in a
Nzinga Orgill (43:58)
you
Esi Hardy (43:59)
very polite way, but you know, trying to articulate a bit and sometimes they get in, sometimes they’re like, no, we’re going to have our inspirational talk from somebody else because that’s what they want.
But trying to get across the lived experience alone is not going to help you fix anything. I can tell you all about my barriers and what’s difficult for me, but that’s only going to help you in the moment when you hire me. But when you go to hire somebody else, you have to start all over again. So it’s more helpful
Nzinga Orgill (44:24)
Yeah.
Esi Hardy (44:25)
if we come from it, from kind of a solution-based approach, and use those lived experiences to make things relatable and tangible.
Nzinga Orgill (44:33)
Yeah, absolutely agree. you know,
the relatable piece is often so, you know, overlooked and not factored into the importance of being able to find commonality. But commonality doesn’t necessarily need to be what we look like or what our backgrounds are. It can be things we’ve experienced.
Esi Hardy (44:52)
We’re coming into the last fair long of our episode today. So I’d like to kind of move the conversation to kind of practical actions that you would give businesses and leaders. I mean, I will say as well, if other practical actions, because I think there’s been so much useful information that you’ve shared throughout this episode so far. But if leaders are listening to this thinking, my God, there’s so much in here, my brain’s fogged, where do I start?
you how would you help them to kind of just start on that journey?
Nzinga Orgill (45:24)
So a really great question. And I think really important to acknowledge that, you know, people, leaders have so much going on as much as it’s, you know, a priority. It’s about making it accessible and easy for people to find. So at Avi2i, we always start off with a temperature gauge and that’s in the way of maturity assessment. We want to understand where you are at in terms of responsible and inclusive communication. Because what is also the case is you’ve got organisations doing some great things.
and it’s worth understanding and highlighting those things as opposed to making the assumption that everyone’s got loads of work to do and they all need help and support. So doing a maturity assessment really helps to kind of tease out where you are. And this is something that definitely can speak volumes in terms of where the opportunities are in your organisation. So where you might have policies, processes, but actually the communication is letting you down. And then it’s based on that assessment, a report is generated by the team will go through it and will understand where your areas of focus are and what recommendations.
we can give you in terms of where to go and what to do next. And this is to support you in terms of where you are on your journey. You know, it’s not about just collecting information and keeping it, it’s about collecting it, obviously sharing it with you, but also understanding how it can support you in terms of strategic thinking, but also planning going forward. So that is the first step. If you are interested in finding out a little bit more about what we do,
Follow me on LinkedIn, I am the only Nzinga Orgill in the entire world. There is nobody else with my name, so if found someone with my name,
Esi Hardy (46:54)
I’m.
Nzinga Orgill (46:55)
they are okay, unless it’s me.
Esi Hardy (46:56)
I am jealous because apparently there’s two or three Esi Hardys which I don’t like them. I’m going to find them and put them away. But yeah.
Nzinga Orgill (47:06)
Well, at the moment, I am the only Nzinga Orgill but I claim it and I embrace it. But yeah, follow follow me on LinkedIn. I’m always sharing stuff around responsible and inclusive communication. We’ve also got some recordings in terms of, you know, webinars and workshops that we’ve done. So if you want a little bit of a flavor without, you know, fully immersing yourself into some of our services as an opportunity and an avenue there. I think the first realistic step is to connect.
and have a conversation and then we go from there.
Esi Hardy (47:35)
Brilliant. So we will be putting all of your information in your details in the show notes so people can contact you through your website through LinkedIn and any other channels that you have as well. So something I always ask guests is if they have any recommendations of influencers that they would give to other people. So these could be books, they could be people, they could be just
I don’t know, media like music and things like that. Do you have anyone that you would recommend or anything that you would recommend people do as a result of listening or
Nzinga Orgill (48:10)
Okay.
Esi Hardy (48:11)
watching this episode?
Nzinga Orgill (48:12)
There are a few things, so I think, you know, definitely get out there and immerse yourself in what’s happening in the inclusion space. Not just in terms of following somebody, a practitioner who you like, but also being aware of the political landscape as well is definitely something I would promote and push. In terms of me, I like to draw my inspiration from other spaces. So, you know, it could be, I listen to a lot of wellbeing podcasts and in particular the one that kind of comes to mind for me is I really enjoy.
Mel Robbins podcast. So like things that can give me top tips and things I can go away and implement and see if there’s any change around what I’ve implemented and then what comes back to me. So I love that. I think, you know, really important to immerse yourself around the right community with that friends, family, know, colleagues. And also, like I’m a religious person, newly more religious person. So I’ve always been connected to God and spirituality.
Well, recently I’ve kind of leaned more into that. And I think, you know, one thing I will probably leave with that, because I think that’s probably the biggest area for me, is it’s all amazing and great being a leader. It’s equally as important to be a leaner. That leaning into your faith, leaning into your community, leaning into resources and things that can support you on your inclusion journey.
Esi Hardy (49:25)
That’s such an important message actually and one that I think that we kind of forget about that actually, you know, and actually probably puts quite a lot of pressure on us that we think as leaders we have to know all the answers but it’s about leading into where the answers also sit so we’re always growing and we’re always learning to pass it back
Thank you so much. So something else I’ve started asking guests is if you were looking at Nzinga when you started, maybe back in your first role in aviation, what would you tell yourself that you know now that you didn’t know then?
Nzinga Orgill (50:01)
Ooh, how long we got, Esi? I won’t take that long. A
Esi Hardy (50:03)
All about 10 minutes.
Nzinga Orgill (50:08)
couple of things. The first thing is trust the process. We so often want to get to the finishing line before we even know what that race sprint marathon looks like. So trust the process. First, that if you are showing up authentically, what will be for you will never pass you. The second thing is accept who you are.
Let’s not try and change up ourselves and fit in and adopt new traits and personality shifts to kind of appease people because the only person you are letting down is yourself. But also actually, it’s not the only person, it’s everybody else who you’re robbing the opportunity of connecting with your authentic self as. So that’s the second thing. And the third thing was to…
to embrace discomfort, not in the way that it becomes this whole journey of struggle and pain. Like, no, I’m really not here for that. But enjoy leaning into spaces that are uncomfortable that will support your growth. And I’ve been quite good at it, but I think there’s also been opportunities that I haven’t lent into that have therefore meant I’ve missed things that personally I think I would have been really, really great off if I had the confidence. So lean in.
You might not know all the answers straight away, but you will figure them out because everything is out there, whether it’s within you or within your community. So that’s probably what I would say to young Nzinga and just to make sure you stay hydrated and get enough rest.
Esi Hardy (51:29)
I like that, I like that. I need to that last lesson definitely. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Nzinga Orgill (51:37)
No, well I say no, but just, you know, responsible, inclusive communication, and I keep reiterating this, isn’t just for those who we feel might come from marginalised communities or need to have their voices seen and heard. It’s for everybody. We all benefit from it. So, you know, I’d encourage every single person, however you choose to move forward, to really think about how you’re communicating, you know, and really align your intentions with your impact because…
As we move towards a world where there’s more technology and there’s less human interaction, we really need to make sure that the connections we’re making when they are human-centred are responsible and inclusive.
Esi Hardy (52:13)
I love that. it’s so you know, I think it would help it helps every single relationship and every conversation, whether it is with a sibling, a family member, a friend or whoever. It can really kind of just help everybody to feel equal in that conversation. So yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Nzinga Orgill (52:35)
Thank you for having me. It’s an absolute pleasure.
Esi Hardy (52:37)
you’re welcome. Absolutely. Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in again and watching and listening to another episode. As all podcasters say, don’t forget to like and subscribe and share. And I really look forward to seeing you in the next episode. And also, if you would like to be on the Equality Edit and you would like to share your story about why equality is so important to you, or you think somebody else would find this podcast helpful,
Please do share this and please get in touch with us either in the comments or email us at the Celebrating Disability website email address. But until next time, have a great afternoon or evening or morning. All right, bye.