What’s Missing From Bereavement Support?

Michelle (she/her): [00:00:00] People don’t know what to say, and they don’t know how to deal with someone who’s grieving, especially in the, the very, , first instance, the first few weeks and months.

But then also when someone comes back to work, it’s like, “Oh, I don’t… Do I… What do I do? Do I say something? Do I not say something?” , And actually there’s a lot of, … there’s a bit of a lightness around someone just saying, “How is such and such?” “How, how are you doing after the death of such and such?”

Is quite honest. But you have to be able to, to do that, and also, read the person that’s in front of you. Do they seem like they actually just wanna get on with their day rather than talk about it, or do they actually seem like they do want to talk about who this person was, or they have a memory they wanna share, and that’s okay.

, Yeah. But it’s… So that’s something I think for managers for workplace is like, well, how do you manage that? Do

you tell, do you tell the rest of the staff, “So and so, Michelle is off because her mum died”? Or, , do you just say, “No, she’s, she’s not in at the mo”? And I think you have to ask that person, [00:01:00] “What’s, what’s best for you?”

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Esi: Welcome again to another episode of The Equality Edit. If you’ve listened to all of them so far, then well done, and also thank you very much. I really appreciate it. We would love more subscribers, although you are beautiful and amazing as you are. So please do share this with others. Rate it if you’re listening to it on Spotify, and please subscribe to it on YouTube as well it helps my ego boost a lot. , So today I’m joined by m- a wonderful guest, Michelle, who was introduced to me by another, , guest we had a few months ago, Teresa. , So I’m gonna let Michelle, , introduce herself and tell you her story, and then we will get into the main, , episode of the podcast. So welcome, Michelle. Thank you [00:02:00]very much for joining us today.

Michelle (she/her): Thank you, Esi. It’s lovely to be here. I appreciate it. Appreciate the opportunity. , So yeah, my name’s Michelle Clayford. , I’m an independent celebrant, which means that I work with people, , around life’s kind of milestones, whether it be, , a naming of a child or a renaming of an adult if they’re transitioning, , funerals, , celebrations of life, weddings, vow renewals.

, It can be anything really, , that they want to mark, but I’m mostly very passionate about death education and making sure that people, , pre-plan for that and that they… we break the taboos around death and dying and bereavement ’cause it’s something that’s gonna affect every single one of us, so it’s very important.

Mm-hmm.

Esi: That is so true. I think it’s probably started as a glib joke, but it’s also true. There’s only a few things that are true in life, birth and death, and not necessarily taxes, ’cause some people don’t have to

Birth and death, they are, , the truest. So I mean, there are… We were talking about this when we, , kind of were talking about what we were [00:03:00] going to discuss.

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: there are so many taboos, , around death, aren’t there? , And I have, , my opinion on, on where they may be coming from and, and how they might be sustained, , but what are your thoughts on that?

Michelle (she/her): , Yeah, there’s, there’s just so many, … Many years ago I was, , a sexual health youth worker. , So I spent 13 years going into schools, primary, secondary, special education need schools, universities and colleges, talking to people about the basics around, sex and relationships, consent and, , what they want their first time to look like, et cetera.

And I don’t really see death as being much different. , It’s the… it’s still a taboo. People don’t really like to talk about it. It makes people very uncomfortable. There’s a lot of myths and, , yeah, just misinformation about what’s gonna happen. , We don’t educate people. Like, if you’re pregnant and you’re gonna give birth, you have a midwife,

, And they go through every step of what’s gonna happen.

You’re completely supported throughout that journey. , When [00:04:00] someone’s dying, we don’t really have that.

, And there are soul midwives and death doulas, , and death… people like myself, death educators, who help people to understand what this all means. I think for some people, when you say that someone’s dying, they imagine it’s gonna be like that.

Esi: Mm-hmm. Tomorrow. Yeah,

Michelle (she/her): It can be a very long, drawn-out process. , For some people it is very quick. For other people, like my mum, she had a life-limiting illness, went on for about five years, so we lived with that knowledge that she was going to die. There was nothing medically that could be done.

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): , But that is, that’s a very difficult situation for someone to be in, for the person who is dying, living with that, but also for their fam- family and friends.

, And then, the week of her final kind of journey, preparing that, , I was very grateful for the knowledge that I had and the work, , the workshops I’ve been to with Katie Costello, who’s a, , a, a soul midwife, , who talked [00:05:00] about some of the things that I had no idea about. , And also very grateful for my friend who’s a senior carer and who has, helped people through that very final journey, and knowing this is normal, this is what’s gonna happen, this is what it looks like, , how things change.

And it’s… Death has become so medicalized, like, but it used to very much be that it was in the community, and I really strongly feel we need to bring death back into the community rather than it just going, oh, you go to hospital or you go to a hospice. There’s absolutely a place for both of those.

However, there’s also a very big place for you can die at home. , This is what it will look like. You don’t have to call a funeral director immediately as long as it’s not, you know- I’m being clear when I’m talking here about the fact this is not a suspicious death

, Or a sudden… Yeah, so if this is a death that you know is coming, , then yes, you can stay with that person for a while.

Like, there’s, there’s so much, and I think [00:06:00] as disabled people, sometimes we are left out of those conversations deliberately. We can be infantilized, , and also people just don’t… They just think, “Oh, you’re not gonna understand,” not taking into account that, people can very much understand and need to be included in these conversations.

It’s very confusing. , Yeah, so I’m, I’m very much… I just think, yeah, we need to talk about it. We need to, , educate people so that we feel empowered to deal with it, ’cause it is gonna happen to every single one of us. One in 29 children experience, , the death of a parent.

Esi: Oh, wow

Michelle (she/her): so when they’re at school, this is…

By saying we’re not gonna talk to children about this is doing them a really big disservice. Yeah, , and school is a safe place when home might be very sad or difficult or angry, grief-filled. They want to come to school and be safe, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t talk about these things. We need to let people, we need to let teachers and [00:07:00] children know to how to be kind to each other and how to treat their friends, how to understand that it’s okay if you’re really sad one Mument, but then you’re playing with your friends and laughing the next, but then feeling sad again.

It’s called puddle jumping, so we jump in and out of our grief. Adults do it, too. , And that’s completely normal. , just like we… When you, you lose somebody, at some point you are gonna be… You might feel guilty for laughing at a joke or something, and actually, it’s okay. It doesn’t mean that you’re not grieving.

Grief doesn’t really look one particular way. , So yeah, all these things I think are, are very, very important. And as adults, we need to understand our relationship with grief so that we can then support the younger people in our lives but also each other.

, Yeah.

Esi: Everything you’ve just said is really , interesting, but I’m just gonna pull out a few bits,

Michelle (she/her): Mm-hmm

Esi: that kind of brought some things up for me. So actually, I have a, , an interesting history with death, I guess you would say, I went to a school for physically [00:08:00] disabled children and, , there was a lot of children with life-limiting, limiting, , disabilities. So I would say in the five years, 11 to 16, I was at school, I probably went to about six funerals

Michelle (she/her): Wow, that’s a lot for a child. Yeah, for anybody. But yeah.

Esi: I remember on my very first day of school, my very first day, we were taken into…

‘Cause it was a boarding school. I was a day girl, but we- it was a boarding school. So we were taken into the main room, , and told somebody had died. Amelia died. And I was like, “Hmm, that’s weird.” And I went home and Mum said, “Oh, how was your first day?” And I was like, “Amelia died.” And she’s like, “Who’s Amelia?” And I was like, “I don’t know.” And, “How do you feel about that?” I was like, “Well, I don’t know. It’s, it’s weird.”

Michelle (she/her): Quite a lot for a first day, isn’t it really? It’s just-

Esi: for the first day, and I was 11, didn’t ha- I… It was so weird. , And so, a, a couple of months later, somebody else had [00:09:00] died that I also didn’t know, because some of these kids had then gone and gone into hospital, or they were older and were remembered by the younger kids. And so the second kid had died, and I went home and I couldn’t stop crying. , And I said to my mum, “I don’t know why I’m crying, because when Amelia died, I didn’t worry.” , But I think, I think it was, I think it was not processing, it wasn’t necessarily about the person, but about the, act or the, the, the thing, the, the idea that somebody was there and then they weren’t.

It was just… was a bit scary. And then as I

Michelle (she/her): It is scary. Hmm

Esi: we kind of used… And this is really kind of a bit macabre, but it was kind of like a way to get out of class. so somebody would die, and we’d be brought into the hall. “Oh, , so sorry to say,” or whoever’s died, “Put your hand up if you wanna go to the funeral.”

“Oh my God, I’ve got [00:10:00] maths. Yes, I wanna go. I wanna go.” , And so some of the funerals, I, I hate to say I went to because it was an afternoon out of the classes that I didn’t wanna go to.

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: but… And I think it was a positive and a negative, not, not kind of getting an afternoon out of class and not being around death so much, but because it gave me this kind of understanding that death is just part and parcel.

Michelle (she/her): Yes, and it is.

Esi: got

Michelle (she/her): Yes.

Esi: and family members and friends, as, like, older family members would die, and I had a couple of friends die when I was younger, it was obviously really sad, but it was also manageable because of the experiences I’d already had

Michelle (she/her): And, and I think that that experience isn’t uncommon. , For some children they have absolutely, they don’t have that experience at all. , I think, yeah, for your very first day at school to be, yeah, that’s, that’s quite a lot to deal with. , However, yes, you did then understand this is what’s [00:11:00] gonna happen, and obviously our brains don’t fully develop till we’re in our mid-20s, so we don’t really understand that future, , that we’re not gonna be here forever, et cetera, et cetera.

, So that takes a long time, to actually settle in. , And so children need a lot of support through that time because a death, , that affects them, , say, in their first year of, uh, secondary school may not fully hit them until they’re in their fourth or fifth year when they’re doing GCSEs.

Like, there’s a whole process, which is why, , we need to be able to support everybody in the whole family through that well. , And for a lot of people, their first experience of death might either be a grandparent or it might be a pet, which is often why we’ll get pets because they tend to have shorter lifespans, and that’s a, that is a good way,

, In a sense to introduce this concept to children.

But there’s lots of other things that we can do, like, death is all around us. Like, it, it’s, it’s not something that you can hide from. , So, talking about wars [00:12:00] or reading a book, and then, Disney films are full of death. , And I think it’s really important to, to talk about, have a healthy discussion around these things that is age appropriate, , not going into too much detail if it’s a very young child.

They don’t need that information. , But it is also scary. , So it can be very scary, so it’s looking at how you discuss these things. And the Child Bereavement Trust, uh, and Winston’s Wish do a whole heap of amazing resources to help families speak to the children and young people within their lives because, yeah, we do need some help with this.

It’s, it’s fine to admit that you need help and so to reach out, and there’s some excellent, excellent books and, and things around it.

Esi: It’s interesting, isn’t it? But thank you very much for that, and we’ll put those, , links in the show notes as well ’cause I think that would be really interesting for people, , and helpful for people as well. It’s

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: though, I was having a conversation with somebody else

So I had asked if, if his child that we were talking about was his firstborn. He said, “No, , we had a [00:13:00] child that died at birth.” , And he said to me, like after we’d been talking about it for a bit, he said, “I didn’t want to just say yes, because that would’ve been an easy answer, but it’s not true.

And he was saying how there just isn’t language, , as a parent of a child that’s died. There’s no language. So if, if

Michelle (she/her): True.

Esi: with a,

Michelle (she/her): Mm-hmm.

Esi: if your parents died, you’re an orphan, I can’t think of the other, but there’s other examples of if you are on the other side, there’s a word for it, but there’s no word for a parent who loses a child. And I think that’s such a, that feeds into that taboo so much, doesn’t it? And, and that, that lack of conversation, that there’s literally no language

Michelle (she/her): Absolutely. , And yeah, how awful that, ’cause you’re still a parent.

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): still, you’ve gone through the pregnancy journey, and you may well have birthed that child or been present, and biological or non-biological, parent of that child. And if that, when that child dies, you are still a parent to that [00:14:00] child.

You’re still a mother or a father. , But you don’t walk out of the hospital with your child, or y- you have to, bury or cremate your child. That’s an awful thing, and I think it’s too confronting for a lot of people. They see the death of a child as the worst possible thing that could happen, and they don’t want to imagine what it might be like.

, So I think that’s also partly maybe why we don’t have a word for parents who have lost, they’ve lost their child, their child has died, and yeah, it’s very difficult. I was reading something, when you have a baby and you leave the ward, , some places, probably more in America, you press a little, like, button on your way out and it sings a little lullaby, which is lovely.

, But if a parent has had a stillbirth or they’ve lost their child, uh, often the nurses will say, “Do you mind if we don’t do that because somebody is, is grieving?” You know. And, , there was an interesting kind of discussion in the comments about some people being very understanding. Other ones like, “Well, should we not celebrate the joy of someone else’s birth?”

It’s like, we can do [00:15:00] both, and we didn’t always have this. So I think it’s okay to be sensitive to the fact that other people may not be feeling as great and happy, , as you are about leaving with your, uh, lovely bundle of joy. , some people are going home with empty arms, and that is not what was expected.

, Yeah

Esi: that, that’s very kind of– to be kind of, to, to be outraged that, that somebody’s asked you that it goes beyond kind of this death conversation, doesn’t it? Uh, and this

Michelle (she/her): It’s a whole other,

Esi: about

Michelle (she/her): yes.

Esi: It, it’s–

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: empathy and compassion for another person

Michelle (she/her): Exactly. Yes, absolutely it is. And I think sometimes we, we can lose that, , sense of compassion and empathy. But again, because people just don’t know what to say,

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): and often that’s the thing, , is that people don’t know what to say, and they don’t know how to deal with someone who’s grieving, especially in the, the very, , first instance, the first few weeks and months.

But then also when someone comes [00:16:00] back to work, it’s like, “Oh, I don’t… Do I… What do I do? Do I say something? Do I not say something?” , And actually there’s a lot of, … there’s a bit of a lightness around someone just saying, “How is such and such?” “How, how are you doing after the death of such and such?”

Is quite honest. But you have to be able to, to do that, and also, read the person that’s in front of you. Do they seem like they actually just wanna get on with their day rather than talk about it, or do they actually seem like they do want to talk about who this person was, or they have a memory they wanna share, and that’s okay.

, Yeah. But it’s… So that’s something I think for managers for workplace is like, well, how do you manage that? Do

you tell, do you tell the rest of the staff, “So and so, Michelle is off because her mum died”? Or, do you just say, “No, she’s, she’s not in at the mo And I think you have to ask that person, “What’s, what’s best for you?”

Esi: Do you think that should be part of the kind of the return to work a few weeks before? How would you like…

Michelle (she/her): Yes

Esi: like the, , a mental health [00:17:00] wellbeing kind of, ,

Michelle (she/her): Yeah.

Esi: isn’t it? How would you

Michelle (she/her): Yes.

Esi: to support you through this?

Michelle (she/her): Absolutely, yeah. , And even if it’s, you have a little signal or you just, there’s something where you can go, “I just don’t wanna… Yeah, I, I, I

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): do that today,” or, “I’m feeling very emotional and, I, I just need five minutes.” So my manager, , at the kind of the main job that I work in, which is not as an independent celebrant, that’s my self-employed business, , he lost…

His father died last year. , And I knew that he’d been in and out of the business, but I didn’t know why. , But I figured it was probably something like that ’cause he was, like, in and out all the time, , just like I was. And, , when we finally got to meet, it was such a refreshing relief to be able to just be very honest with each other about how we were feeling, and understanding we’d both lost a parent, and how emotional that was.

And that if we’re having a bad day, we could just say, “I, I just need five minutes,” or, “I need a hug.” , And, he, he’s been incredibly [00:18:00] understanding and supportive throughout all of that process, and we’re not scared to have those difficult conversations, I suppose, that some people really will pr- step away from.

, And that’s made a world of difference to me at work.

Esi: So my friend lost her son. died, I think it was about three, four years ago now. and I sent her a couple of messages just to say, “I’m not going to keep asking you,

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: because I know that you don’t want me to, but I’m here if you would like to talk.” When we’d met up, I asked her for stories about, what they would do together. So she was able to talk about

Michelle (she/her): Lovely.

Esi: but not necessarily about the end. , But she was able to talk about those happy memories as well. , I was also taught once, ’cause I was a Samaritan, so I was told, , if you don’t know what to say, just say, “I, I’m not sure what to say, but I’m here if you would like to talk.”

Michelle (she/her): Yes. And that’s, that’s kind of perfect. Some of the worst things people can say is, “Oh, just let me know if you need [00:19:00] anything,” and then not, following up with that when you are a- actually asked. , Or, just saying nothing. , Yeah, uh, i- it’s, it’s absolutely fine to say, “I just don’t know what to say.”

Things along the lines of, “Oh, they’re in a better place now,” There was also another, instance at work And, , somebody had, had a miscarriage, and they said, “Oh, it’s okay, you can have another one. Or, “You can try again.” Like that, no. No. Can we just put an absolute no? This is not, not a thing to say. “God won’t give you more than you can, that you can carry,”

I think that’s part of what the education, uh, around this can be is like, well, let’s not say that. You, what you could say is, “How are you doing right, how are you doing today? How are you doing right now? , Would you like me to walk the dog? Would you like to come for a walk with me?

I can come over and tidy the house, change the bed, do some washing up, make you some food. Does that sound like it might be a good thing to do?” , and when my Mum did [00:20:00] die, we, uh, friends rallied, and we had, , lots of people at h- at her bungalow helping us clear it out ’cause she was renting, so we only had a short amount of time.

So we had to, get it all out and cleaned and everything, and it was incredible and that made such a difference.

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): had people that sent, , like, Deliveroo or Just Eat vouchers, so it meant that we didn’t have to worry about cooking. Another friend delivered a lot of food, uh, from M&S.

, So we just, again, didn’t have to worry about things, and that made all the difference. , Again, and you, if you think back to the stories you, you kind of hear about from back in the day, people would turn up with casseroles or, your neighbors would turn up with things,

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): there’s a reason for that because you need to eat.

You might not feel like it, but you need to. Your body needs fuel. , And also it’s a ph- it’s a physical way for people to show that they care.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): and that’s, I think that’s really important.

, It, that and, and things people tend to drift away after a few months, , and [00:21:00] that can be incredibly lonely and difficult as well

Esi: But, the, the cause is still there. , And what I heard

Michelle (she/her): Yeah.

Esi: what you were saying just there wasn’t, me know if you’d like me to make your bed. Let me know if you’d like to.”

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: Shall we? So, so uh … And that, that actually, I’m gonna take that as a, as a lesson. So rather than saying, “I’m here if you want me to,” I’m going to, not, not pushing yourself on somebody,

Michelle (she/her): no,

uh, obviously, yeah, with consent, et cetera. But yes.

Esi: but

Michelle (she/her): Give an idea. Yes.

Esi: I know it’s going to be

Michelle (she/her): Yeah. Yes.

Esi: so another thing I

Michelle (she/her): yeah

Esi: uh, was I said, “I’d like to send you flowers. Couldn’t you send me your address?” Not … I mean, obviously I wouldn’t say, “If you’d like flowers, let me know,” but you but it’s kind of like this is what my intention is, so you don’t

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: feel as though you have to say no. Or,

Michelle (she/her): Yes

Esi: you don’t have to do anything else.

, I’m just telling you that, that this is my intention, and I want to do it

Michelle (she/her): Yeah, but also being, , being [00:22:00] careful with the fact that for some people they don’t want flowers ’cause they die,

Esi: True.

Michelle (she/her): that’s an immediate thing. Secondly, that’s something you have to… You’ve got to take them out the paper, you’ve gotta cut them, you’ve gotta put… So just again, being aware. I’m not saying it’s the wrong thing to do, just…

And also don’t be– don’t take it personally if someone says, “No, thank you, but I’d like you to do this,” or, “Can, can you do this?” I have heard of other people who say, I think they, generally speaking, women tend to outlive their husbands if you’re in that relationship, , and feeling very lonely in bed, uh, and, and not being able to sleep, and so friends would take…

They put– set up a rota, so there was always somebody to sleep next to the widow, and so she never felt alone, and just a little thing like that can really make all the difference.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): , And yeah, just… And I suppose, yeah, we’ll come onto some other bits in a minute, but really respecting, respecting your friend or your family member.

, And, and also if you ask them what they want, [00:23:00] they may not have a clue. Like, our brains change so much during grief. , add perimenopause onto that or, chronic fatigue, uh, all the other things, you’re just, yeah, unable to function.

Esi: I know you were talking about kind of trying to raise funding for, , a toolkit. , Would this be part of that toolkit, and can you tell us a little bit about that?

Michelle (she/her): Yeah, it would be. , So what I did create, , is a little kind of booklet. , It’s called A Respect, , Respecting Death and Dying. , As a, as a queer woman, I wanted to make sure that, , we had tools within our community to understand, , what we need to do, why we need to do it, why it’s so important for members of the LGBTQIA+ communities to pre-plan.

, Looking at things like lasting power of attorney, , making sure you’ve written a will, that you have your, , the respect form, because, , if you are in a, unconventional relationship, , as it were, although we, you can be married now, we can legally be married, if you are living with somebody else, , [00:24:00]it…

unless you’ve got things in writing, you may not have any protection over where you live. So for some people, not only will they lose their partner, they’ll lose their home. , They’ll lose their, obviously, that second income. They may not get pension. So suddenly your whole life has, has changed

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): On top of that, you may find that if your partner was estranged from their family, unless you are down as the next of kin or it’s written specifically in their wishes that they want you to make those decisions, i.e.

the lasting power of attorney, if you’re kicked out of that, you have no legal recourse to come back in, and the family can take over. They’ll make, the decisions about things, things that your… you know that your, your partner wouldn’t have wanted, and that is beyond, beyond upsetting and heartbreaking.

Uh, misgendering, , people still happens. Some people aren’t out at all to other members of their [00:25:00] family. How do we, as a community then, friends and family, say goodbye?

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): Because we need to think about that. , But one of the things, … So I learnt BSL, ’cause my wife, uh, learnt it to use at work, and I could see the difference that it made, so I learnt, , and use it in my main job.

And again, it, it’s just so wonderful to see someone… the relief on someone’s face go, “Oh, you sign.” It’s like, “Yes.” , And I’m not very good. Like I’ve forgotten a lot of it, but the fact that I’m gonna try makes a big difference. But I know that there aren’t, there aren’t any resources for deaf and, and hard of hearing people around funerals and death and bereavement.

So obviously, yes, you can get an interpreter in to sign for you, but there’s loads of other things that you need to think about before you get to a funeral.

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): Like, there’s so much to consider. So I want to raise money. I want to be able to get this translated into BSL so that, , deaf communities can access the information they need without having to go and find an [00:26:00] interpreter and think about the things, the questions they would need to ask that they don’t know.

‘Cause they don’t know what they don’t know.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): You know. , Yeah. , And there are resources for, , people with learning difficulties. , There are some really good resources out there. , But even then, I have heard of some families just, , not wanting to have these conversations at all. – Uh, Lippy People, which is a relatively local charity, , in West Yorkshire.

, Saw some very interesting stories from some of the people, , uh, there, and they– one of them was saying that, , their their parent had been murdered. Now, they didn’t know. They knew that they weren’t coming back, but they didn’t understand why, and the family didn’t want to tell them. But of course, that person’s going out into the world.

It was quite a high-profile thing, so it’s on the news. Everybody else is talking about it. They’re gonna hear about it. You can’t just not tell someone something ’cause it’s gonna make you uncomfortable. You, as a person, have the right to know [00:27:00] what’s going on th- in your life, what you– that direct affects you.

, And yeah, that was quite horrifying . ‘Cause like, that’s just not okay. There are ways to have these conversations, , but part of it is just being brave and

Esi: Well, it, it, it is, isn’t it? I mean, it is unacceptable, but I, I also, I’m, I don’t agree, but I understand why people don’t have these conversations with their, their in quotes children, whether they’re adults or not, because they want

protect them.. But at the same time, it’s not protecting

Michelle (she/her): It, it’s not.

Esi: protecting

Because, it, it perpetuates the, the, , the loss, the discomfort, the grief of that person’s facing because they don’t know what’s going on as well

Michelle (she/her): Yeah, and how confusing is that? Like, people know, children know.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): , You get a sense, you feel, uh, you walk into a room, everyone’s crying or they’re angry, and then you think you’ve done something wrong.

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): , And that’s not the case, but that’s, that internalizes, so much [00:28:00] trauma for a child.

, And, for anyone, with a learning disability who can’t fully communicate what they’re feeling, but they know that something’s not right.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): , one of my funeral directors, , was dealing with a family and they’d said, “Is there anybody preparing for the, the funeral itself at the crematorium?

Is there anyone that needs a, a sign language interpreter?” “No, no.” And then she said she was horrified when, , in the congregation there was, , someone there who was, uh, deaf who needed an interpreter, but he had no idea what’s going on ’cause nobody had, nobody could communicate that to him.

, And she was, very embarrassed and felt awful, but it’s like you’ve asked, we’re not gonna, you’re not, we don’t know.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): , When of course interpreters cost money as, as they should be paid. It’s a, it’s a huge job. But, ,

Esi: It’s almost

Michelle (she/her): just

Esi: I mean, you would be, wouldn’t it be amazing, you know how you can buy funeral packages? , Wouldn’t it be amazing if it was part of a funeral package? Like, it could be an optional, but it,

Michelle (she/her): [00:29:00] Yeah

Esi: who is really grieving and having to, to kind of put this together for them, “Oh, would you like to select the option?”

“Oh, yes. No, I nearly forgot about that.” And then done

Michelle (she/her): Except that what we talked about earlier, when you’re in that state, and you said you, you hadn’t even thought about, , people, , who are deaf needing an interpreter, you ha- or a access requirement at a funeral because you’re in that grief state. So of course, if you are in that grief state, and it isn’t necessarily someone that’s close to you that’s deaf, and you’re not thinking…

Esi: anyway.

Michelle (she/her): I think that’s, it, it wasn’t that the offer hadn’t been, it hadn’t been asked. It’s just they hadn’t thought about it or hadn’t realized actually they did need that. But again, I suppose this is about educating people to say, “Actually, I’m gonna go to this funeral. I’m gonna need an interpreter.

Who can I speak to about that?” , And letting people know in advance so that that can be organized so the pressure isn’t always on, , the, the client who’s organizing the funeral, that actually, other people can go, “Right, okay, Harry’s coming to this. He needs an [00:30:00] interpreter. Shall I contact the funeral director and get that arranged?”

Awesome. Or you can bring your own or, whatever. But,

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): it, it’s being, being brave, and I think we’re also, we’re quite British, aren’t we? We don’t wanna make a fuss. , But it… this is important. –

Esi: It, it is important. In other, any other ways we would advocate for our rights. But, you

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: it’s difficult at a funeral because you’re, you’re in front of a grieving family. I went to a

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: a few weeks ago, and it was a lovely funeral it was a disabled person that died, a wheelchair user, and so there w- were quite a few wheelchair users. And we were wheeled in to the front, and then we had to sit at the front until everybody else was in. And then we had to get our spaces, and then we were– we had to wait for everyone to leave, so we were, like, all, all positioned round the coffin, and then we were wheeled out at the end.

And then, I am an advocate and an activist with disability rights, and in any other situation I would go, “Actually, shall we have a conversation?” But it’s not the time and the place

Michelle (she/her): It isn’t. [00:31:00] However, again, having these conversations with your funeral director before the event means that, , or the celebrant as well, we can ensure that everything is, is laid out so that you do have enough room to get in. , You can go and visit a crematorium, , go visit one, so A, so you know what it’s- what to expect, but B, so you know what the layout is and you go, “Okay, if we’re gonna have, five wheelchair users, , but, this is, this one’s got a very, very big chair, this one’s on a scooter or whatever, so we need, we need access for people to move around.”

Things like that, it’s, like, so important. , Also because we need time. Some funerals, , at crematoriums, you only have 20 minutes.

Esi: Yeah.

Michelle (she/her): So if, as a f- as a celebrant, I’m going, “Right, so I’ve got maybe five minutes to get p- the congregation in. I need five minutes at the end to get congregation out. That means I have 10 minutes of ceremony.”

Now, if I know that we have, people with limited mobility or other things coming in, I’m like, “Right, we’re gonna need longer. That means I’ve got shorter time, so I have to write to a shorter time.” , So in that [00:32:00] case, do we need a double slot? So there’s lots of practical things to think about, and these are things that you- nobody else is gonna think about, unless you’re actually within this industry as an undertaker or as a celebrant that you think, “Okay, right, I need t- I need to think about this,” or a crematorium assistant.

And also, you don’t have to have your funeral at a crematorium. It can be somewhere else, which takes away that time constraint, , and also means that you have enough space. , you can go to a place that’s beautiful and accessible, and, , means that you’re n- you just feel a bit easier about it.

You’re not on a conveyor belt. And unfortunately, a lot of funerals now are. They feel like a conveyor belt because,

Esi: Yeah, yeah,

Michelle (she/her): yeah, literally you’ve got the deceased, you’ve got the, the current funeral going on, you’ve got the one that’s previously happened just out the back, and you’ve got the people out front waiting to come in.

If any one of those is late, well, that, messes up the whole thing. There’s, there are other options, , and having a celebration of life, uh, being able [00:33:00] to, , actually pre-plan what you want means that it takes some of that pressure away. There is no legal requirement really around

Esi: in a certain place.

Michelle (she/her): how it… Yeah

Esi: think, I think, uh, and it… that’s really interesting, and I agree with you as the person in charge, as the professional, it’s our job to know these things.

So as a trainer, it’s my

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: to think about how delegates are going to engage and interact, and

Michelle (she/her): Yes

Esi: I have to guide my client when they say, “Oh, I think we should get everybody to jump up and down for 10 minutes.” To think, do you really think that’s a

Michelle (she/her): we?

Esi: ever suggested that. But for example, do you actually think that’s gonna help people? What, what’s the goal of that? And so, yes, yeah, as, as the professional, we take that responsibility to guide people. I’m also thinking about kind of, so, so if I think about funerals I’ve been to, where the, the deceased is a disabled person, , specifically then actually, , I’ve been to, as an adult, not as a [00:34:00] child, , I’ve been to quite a few funerals where the deceased has been a disabled person, and the funeral has been arranged by either their wife, partner, or family member. , And with all the best intentions, the family member has how the disabled people are going to be organized, and it’s clear that that’s what’s happened. , And it’s with the best intentions, and I think that’s where these k- things kind of fall apart a bit.

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: I know, as we’re talking about today, I know that accessibility and inclusion is a very strong part of what you do, and it drives what you do, , to make it inclusive. Do you think it should be a prerequisite for a celebrant or a funeral director to, to kind of have that background knowledge to be able to guide people in those kind of directions?

Michelle (she/her): I think it would be great if we could, yeah, i- if that was part of it. And, , one of [00:35:00] the things I’ve done recently, , as part of the Celebrant Circle, , myself and, uh, Trey, another celebrant, we delivered a session on, Inclusivity around, , s- specifically around ADHD, , autism, so neurodivergence, , and, , trans, but also, uh, lesbian, gay, bisexual, , people as well, the whole alphabet mafia, , just to help, , other celebrants think about things that they haven’t thought about before.

, we talk to the things that we, uh, we know, , and sometimes we need someone to go, “Hmm, is it that though?” Does everyone have a loving family? , Are everyone’s parents wonderful? , Do, does everyone come from a two-parent family that are straight? , let’s try and w- move away from some of the phrases that we, that we might use.

, Think about how to be more inclusive in your language. , And I think, yes, that could be rolled out to, to many other people within the sort of death-to-death industry. , To be fair, m- a lot of undertakers, [00:36:00] funeral directors are, are wonderful. They’ve been doing it for a long time. They have thought about these things.

Crematoriums, , are accessible, some of them. , And that’s great, but accessible for you might be something that’s different to accessible for me. , And that’s, that’s something that people don’t think about. I … Generally, I think people think, “Oh, if, if it’s accessible,” they’re thinking wheelchair

Esi: for the

Michelle (she/her): rather than

and a ramp, rather than, okay, is, is it really bright? Is it really loud? Is the sound gonna bounce off walls and, like, drive me crazy? , Are … there’s all sorts of other things that we need to, we need to think about. Do you have a, a disabled toilet that’s accessible? , I went to … So I did a vow renewal last year, , for, for a couple, and, uh, the place, the venue that they chose said it was accessible.

, And they have a, they had an accessible toilet,

Esi: Yep.

Michelle (she/her): yeah. , What they didn’t say was that … So it was on two levels, so the, , in order to get to the [00:37:00] accessible toilet or wherever, you had to go out of the venue and then go in another way, and it was like, that’s not really accessible. , Oh, it’s just a small step.

Great. Okay. How am I gonna get, , the power chair or the wheelchair up there? , Actually, can’t lift our legs very easily. This is gonna cause a lot more difficulties. Cobbled streets. There’s just so many different things. , So this is why it’s really important to do a, to go and do a site visit first and

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): a recce and go, “Oh, okay, this isn’t actually accessible.”

Let alone getting onto gendered toilets and all the rest of it. That’s a whole other thing, and a- again, it, it, it’s … Yeah. The, the language that we use is very important. , So I think, you know- But it’s a big change for people. It’s a really big change to get someone to think differently, , and to change, , to change everything.

, It- some people have to actually be on board with wanting to do that and to see why it’s important. It’s not just lip service. We need to actually [00:38:00] understand, , and, and to make, make the change

Esi: What would you recommend, that somebody who is planning a funeral either for themselves or somebody else ask their funeral director or celebrant to ensure that the, , the service is going to be inclusive in the way they see inclusion?

Michelle (she/her): So firstly, what does that mean to you? So if you were pre-planning your funeral or you were planning a funeral f- on behalf of someone else, what does that inclusion mean to you? So we would need to think about what that is. So for you, it needs to be, wheelchair accessible, the, everything needs to be wide enough for you to be able to go through and turn around and, those, those kind of things.

There has to be a, a toilet. , Yeah, w- we need to work out what, what does that mean to you. , If you’re- If you’re visually impaired or you’re hard of hearing or, do we… I’ve, I’ve had, , services where I’ve, , printed off a script, but I’ve put it in, [00:39:00] like, 16 font or whatever, so it’s bigger, so the person…

I know they’ve got people who are visually impaired or, very old and struggling with, with seeing things, so they could, they could read along. , do we need a, a, a sign language interpreter? Do we need an interpreter for another language altogether?

Like,

What, making sure that the interpreters can see the script beforehand so they know what’s gonna be said.

, There’s just, there’s so many different things. But yeah, you need to know what it is that you want first, , and then communicate that clearly to your, uh, undertaker and your celebrant, who should be communicating all the time about your, your service anyway. , That is good practice. , And make sure that they tell you what they’ve done.

“Is this okay? Do you need anything else?” And honestly, the majority of undertakers w- will be bending over backwards to make sure that everything is right for you. , But yeah, you, you really need to be able to give us a clear idea of what it is that you want, because I’m not a mind reader. I, I, I need you to tell me, and I will do my best to ask lots of [00:40:00] questions, , but I may miss something, and you, need to be brave and tell me what it is that you want.

Esi: I think that’s a really good question, though. Just that one question, what does inclusion look like for you? ,

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: that’s kind of what we do, in good conversations about adjustments in the workplace,

We’re not making any assumptions at all. We’re saying, “What does good look like for you?” And then we can ask a lot of prompt questions to, to

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: person get to that answer, and we can support them with some ideas, but we’re not making any assumptions but by saying, “I want to start by hearing more from you.”

Michelle (she/her): Yeah.

Esi: kind of like

Michelle (she/her): Yeah.

Esi: approach, isn’t it?

Michelle (she/her): A- absolutely, yeah. And, and a good celebrant or a good undertaker is gonna hear what you’re not saying as well. So, that’s part of the skill that we have is we’ll ask you questions. , But it’s also, okay, I’m also not hearing this. Have you considered this, or what is it? You know.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): So that, that’s [00:41:00] another thing that’s, that’s important. , Yeah. And I think if you are pre-planning your funeral, , make sure that you write down all your wishes, what you want. , There are, , some great resources out there. LegacyShare is an app that you can use, or, , you can log onto their website and fill your details in.

, And then give access to somebody within your, your family. The reason it’s important that you tell someone else, , and that someone that you trust, is that your wishes don’t have to be honored.

Esi: Mm-hmm. okay.

Michelle (she/her): So,

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): yeah. And I’ve been in that position where I’ve been working with someone before they died. , And then, , they died, and I’d written everything out.

This person had agreed what they wanted. We were all good to go, and the family were absolutely horrified and said, “No.”

Esi: Wow

Michelle (she/her): Didn’t want that. , And it was the first time that had happened to me, and I was really, uh, very shaken. I was like, “But that’s what they wanted. This is what they’ve [00:42:00] said. They’ve agreed, and we’ve agreed.”

And they’re like, “No, we don’t want that.” I’m like, “Okay. So you are now the client that are telling me this is what you want, and I have to go with that or I, hand over to someone else.” So it’s, it’s really important that you include your loved ones or friends and family within this process so they understand what it is that you want.

Esi: Yeah. Yeah. I want is lots of Robbie Williams songs. Anything else can happen, I don’t care,

Michelle (she/her): And you don’t care about…

Esi: and if

Michelle (she/her): And,

Esi: himself is there, that’s even better.

Michelle (she/her): okay. We’ll, we’ll see what we can do.

Esi: thank very much. Thank you. , Th- this is recorded, ,

Michelle (she/her): Okay. Yeah.

Esi: We’ve talked, , a lot about kind of, I know a big part of, of kind of your identity being a celebrant, and I know that you have a full-time job elsewhere as well. But I … That’s, as all of us, that’s only one side of who you are. tell us a bit more about you. , What drives your passion for equality?

Michelle (she/her): , So firstly, I work part-time elsewhere, so [00:43:00] because of my ’cause of my, , I have fibromyalgia, , and a few other things, but that’s my main kind of disability. It’s invisible. , And that affects, how I c- how much I can do, , on a day-to-day basis. , So finally, after many years, I’ve worked out I can work two days a week, , not, not back to back, and that helps me to manage, , my energy and my pain, and then I do celebrant work in between without, without too much, so I’m not overdoing it.

, And plus I want to give as much to my families as I can, and that means I’m not doing back-to-back ceremonies. I can’t. It’s not who I am. , So when I first decided that I was gonna be a celebrant, , and I was thinking about how I was gonna market myself, I thought, “Well, if I’m looking for somebody, I want someone that’s a bit like me.”

So, I’m a queer brown disabled woman, and, , I, as far as I’m aware, I can’t see anybody else out [00:44:00] there that is looking like me. , And, the celebrant world is generally quite white. It’s generally quite female. , It’s women of a certain age like myself. , A lot, majority are probably straight.

, And I thought, “Well, that’s fine, but I… if I want me, then other people are gonna want someone that understands them as well.”

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): , Yeah, so I, , that’s how I decided to, you know… That’s why I decided to market myself in the way that I have, and I know that-

I know that’s probably gone against me in some for s- in some ways because, , one of the understakers I worked with a couple of years back who was very lovely and very positive and, and everything, but she went to the client and said, “Oh, I found you the perfect person, and she’s brown.” And

That’s great. The client was also brown. We got on. We have, [00:45:00] very similar background. However, I think what can happen is that you get pigeonholed

Esi: Absolutely. Wow

Michelle (she/her): , You’re, you’re only gonna work with this particular kind of personal client, and that isn’t the case. I’m happy to work with anybody.

, But… And fair enough, I have embraced, marketing myself in a particular way. However, ,

Esi: I think

Michelle (she/her): yeah

Esi: I think people misunderstand the importance of representation and what Pride is about, ,

but for people who are thinking, “Well, what’s wrong with that?” Could, do you mind just unpacking that a little bit?

Michelle (she/her): What I would say is that, , the funeral was for, , a gay man, so initially they wanted a gay man to do the ceremony. , And there just aren’t many, there aren’t many of us around. , And none of the, the men that, could, w- might have been suitable were able to, so I’d said, “I’m really happy to do it, but, bear in mind, I am, I am a woman.”

, And actually it was, it was one of my favorite services to do. It was absolutely lovely. , And [00:46:00]Yeah, the, , yeah, the funeral director very well-meaning.

Esi: Yeah.

Michelle (she/her): No, no harm meant at all.

Esi: yeah. Yeah

Michelle (she/her): , And I think she was very excited because, she’d found in her eyes the, the best person for the job. , And I guess as a client maybe, she was very happy because I was brown, so that was an a- additional thing.

But that assumes so many different…

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): It assumes so much. Uh, it, it’s… I don’t even know if I c- have got the energy to unpack it all, to be honest, Des, it’s just,

Esi: The reason I said, “Can you unpack it?” so that I didn’t have

Michelle (she/her): it’s just, it’s, it

Esi: Yeah, sorry, that was a tough one. , I apologize. It’s, it’s, it can be really difficult, can’t it? I think, well, for people who perhaps don’t have that, those kind of oppression struggles in the same way.

So I’m not talking for everyone. Representation for me is about, role models, seeing other [00:47:00]people who have achieved and look and present, and have very similar, not very, but similar experiences to me, things that I can identify with. , But also kind of this, , it, it comes into…

I think it kind of on that conversation, I don’t see color. it’s not about, “Oh, I’m colorblind.”

Michelle (she/her): Don’t even get me started on that one

Esi: only gonna hire you if you’re brown. But it’s about, , we acknowledge, being proud of who we are as people, being proud of the struggles that we’ve been through. , But also what we’ve achieved. So I mean, not proud of the struggle. Acknowledging the struggles, but, and being proud of what we achieved. So as a disabled person, I am so proud that my rights as a disabled person were fought for by other disabled people. Kind of, it, I don’t know, I don’t know how to describe it, it, but it gives me like bubbles in my stomach every time I think about the people who had fought for me, and I’m so envious that they got [00:48:00] to, , fight for me, and I wasn’t there. , Because some of those protests were, sounded bloody amazing, actually.

Michelle (she/her): Absolutely. Yeah.

Esi: and I think, I think maybe I’ve gone off the subject a little bit.

But it’s, it’s, I would… Yeah, I might look at somebody who I identify with and think, “Oh, brilliant,” you know? I, I won’t have to validate myself. I won’t have to explain myself. But at the same time, I’m not, “Oh, you just, you, you’re the same color skin as me. You’ll be brilliant.” You know? That, it’s not as simple as that.

It’s so much more layered than

Michelle (she/her): It is. It’s so much more layered and, coming back to, I think, the, the, the comment about intersectionality, I’m not just one thing. , yes, I’m a cis woman. , I’m 52. I’m perimenopausal. , I live with i- invisible kind of disabilities. , I also have ADHD. , And my household is, is…

we are… There’s three adults that live here, and we have a collection of disabilities [00:49:00] within, within the house, , which are all invisible. From POTS to ME, to, fibromyalgia, to, , EDS, , chronic migraines, all sorts of things. , And yeah, the fact that I’m in, , a lesbian-presenting marriage, uh, people make assumptions about my sexuality.

, one of the things that I, , I celebrated 10 years at my other job, and one of the, the things that my managers were saying was how wonderful. They never knew how I was feeling, as in I didn’t pr- I didn’t show that I was in pain all the time. Like, I just, turned up and got on with my job.

And there’s… That’s great. There’s also a whole heap of ableism in there as well. There’s just a lot to, to kind of unpack. But, , yeah, we, we are the sum of our parts. , And just because you see someone that looks like you, that is immediately, “Oh, that’s good. That’s great.” But being aware that that person may not be anything like you,

Esi: No

Michelle (she/her): and actually they have all these other things going on.

, And yeah, whether it’s your sexual [00:50:00] orientation or your gender, all these different things people don’t know.

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): , And you don’t… You can choose to, to, to be out, but you don’t have to be. , Yeah. I’ve probably gone off topic there, but,

, But yeah.

Esi: I remember… So my sister got married a couple of years ago,

Michelle (she/her): Hmm.

Esi: and, , they’re a lesbian couple, and it was very important to them that all of the, I don’t know, the people around the wedding, , as in like the makeup artist, the

Michelle (she/her): Yes.

Esi: the

Michelle (she/her): Yeah.

Esi: photographer, they were from the community as well.

But I

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: for my sister, it was more about, boostering that community

Michelle (she/her): Yes. Yeah

Esi: providing, not that people couldn’t have opportunities unless Hattie hired them, but kind of helping with those kind of, I’m not articulating this properly, but kind of, yeah,

Michelle (she/her): I get,

Esi: championing

Michelle (she/her): what you mean.

Esi: community.

Michelle (she/her): But yeah, because we do have less opportunities. Especially if you, , present differently, [00:51:00] there is an assumption of who you are, and therefore people don’t necessarily want to work with you or employ you. Uh, Rebel Love Directory, , is one place that, gathers, , a lot of, of the wedding, , the queer wedding community together.

Esi: No

Michelle (she/her): , So you can go and, and search and find makeup artists and flower arrangers, celebrants, et cetera, et cetera, that it makes sense ’cause you want… also, you wanna be safe, you want to be surrounded by people.

Esi: true

Michelle (she/her): , But just because someone, is also Brown doesn’t mean that they’re not homophobic.

Esi: Exactly

Michelle (she/her): there can be a lot of racism within, and homophobia within the disabled community.

, And, even within, the gay community, the biphobia is, huge. , There can be a lot of racism as well. There’s, there’s so much even talking about voting. I’m so proud to be able to vote. I’m like… it, it, a bit like you, it feel… I’m like, I have to vote whether I can find someone that I fully agree with or not.

It’s my right. Women died to, to give me that [00:52:00] ability. But also I’m fully aware that the suffragettes were very white, and that initial movement was not inclusive of Brown or, , working class people at all. , That had, that came later. So everything is layered. , So we just have to be careful, and I think it’s about providing a space where you feel safe and surrounding yourself with people who do look like you or sound like you and who have the similar, mindset, and

Esi: And

Michelle (she/her): that’s important.

Esi: well.

Michelle (she/her): Yeah, absolutely.

Esi: lots of wheelchair users that I do not like at all,

Michelle (she/her): Mm.

Esi: probably more than the ones I do.

Michelle (she/her): Yes. And also, I think, uh, I mean, just because you’re disabled or in a wheelchair or whatever doesn’t give you the right to be a dick.

Esi: Yes. true

Michelle (she/her): And it doesn’t mean that you can’t be challenged on your behavior. Like, or the way that you’ve said things or whatever, like, that doesn’t… your, your differences and difficulties in life do not make, [00:53:00] do not, , cancel out anybody else’s.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): we still have to, , grow. We still have to be, decent people.

Esi: Absolutely.

Michelle (she/her): , Yeah

Esi: Somebody said something very pertinent to me once. Not to me, they weren’t saying it about me, but we were talking and they said it, and I think it should be quoted actually. “Just ’cause you’re disabled doesn’t mean you’re not a dick.” And I was

Michelle (she/her): Yeah.

Esi: “Yep, that’s so true.”

Michelle (she/her): I mean, yeah. No. But yeah, this, this is the thing, it’s like, and I think sometimes people, “Oh no, we can’t say anything and can’t challenge.” It’s like, you can.

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): Perfectly okay.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): there’s so much, so much privilege everywhere. , And just because you don’t have my difficulties doesn’t mean that you can’t understand that I’m having difficulties and, it’s not cake.

Esi: Is there anything that you feel that we haven’t discussed?

Michelle (she/her): I think one thing I’d like to say is that, , bereavement [00:54:00] education is now gonna be part of the curriculum in schools as of s- the 1st of September, which is amazing. , But that also comes with … Like, I don’t know what that’s gonna look like. , I know a lot of celebrants and other funeral directors have been reaching out to schools to try and get them to, to say like, “We’re here, we wanna support you,” but not really getting a lot back.

And I don’t know how much this has been l- how much the society knows that this is coming. ’cause this will impact not just children, but their families. ’cause again, going back to sex education, , some parents like, “I don’t want you talking to my child about that. I’m going to withdraw them.”

, But that doesn’t help that child.

Esi: No

Michelle (she/her): , But also, what are you learning at home? What conversations are you having? So we need to be able to teach the, the parents or their families as well. , So yeah, it’s great that it’s coming in. Uh, John Adams, , has worked [00:55:00] tirelessly, , with the, with the government to, uh, and the Good Grief Trust, , to really rally and to make this happen, and it’s, it’s so important.

Yeah

Esi: So I know you just said, , there’s a lot of unknowns at the Mument, but are … Is it gonna be part of teachers’ training, and is it gonna be catch-up training for teachers?

Michelle (she/her): I don’t know. I mean, I, I was on a call last night, and what we think will probably happen, especially in secondary schools, is that it’ll be given to the PHSE teachers, , to deal with.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): whether there is specialist training, I don’t know. I know that there are some lesson plans out there. Some funeral directors have already been going into schools and, having some great conversations with, with children, bringing a hearse to the school so the kids can have a look and see what it is.

, And yeah, I think that’s, that’s really very important, taking away the, , the mystery of it all and the confusion of it all. , I talked a little bit about language before, , and how important it is to be clear. , So with children and with people with learning [00:56:00] disabilities or difficulties, how we talk about what happens when we die is very key, and not, not to be too flowery and metaphorical ’cause it can actually be more terrifying.

They go,

” Well, what, what’s that?” “Oh, I’m sorry that you’ve lost your such and such.” “Okay, but you’ve lost your gloves. You lost your gloves and you found them. Why can’t you go and find such and such?” “Oh, don’t worry, Granny’s looking down from you, , from heaven.” That actually is kind of creepy.

Esi: very creepy. Go away,

Michelle (she/her): yeah. Yeah, right. , Or, “Oh, Mummy’s, , Mummy’s always watching you,” or she’s, she’s watching you when you’re sleeping.

Esi: Nighttime’s

Michelle (she/her): Again,

Esi: yeah.

Michelle (she/her): Yeah. , so just being very clear about the fact, yeah, their body’s stopped working. , Yeah, their heart’s stopped beating. If children are worried or pe- someone’s worried that they’re gonna feel cold.

No, they don’t feel cold anymore. They feel physically [00:57:00] cold if you touch them, but,

Esi: But

Michelle (she/her): they don’t feel that ’cause they’re not there anymore. , Yeah. Being able, w- people, again, are like, “Oh, should we take them to the funeral?” Yes. If it’s appropriate, I think. For me, I’m always gonna lean on the yes because, , we need closure.

And if you don’t have closure, then it leads to a lot of complications with grief. , And it can lead to a lot of anxiety and depression and other behavioral issues because, yeah, kids are confused. So, , yeah, , the Lupi Project has done a lot of work with their, , with their, , service users around these kind of things and, , just hearing their stories is really powerful, , and understanding why it’s so important to communicate, , and to talk to people, ,

Esi: And think about people with neurodivergent

Conditions and learning disabilities

Taking things literally. So if,

Granny, well, well,

Michelle (she/her): Yes

Esi: why were you so careless? Where did she go? Where, what, what are we doing to find her? Do you know what I mean? And,

Michelle (she/her): Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Esi: it is,

Michelle (she/her): Yeah, but it, it’s… Yes, [00:58:00] you’re right.

Esi: is so misguiding, isn’t it? And I

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: I don’t know if it was just a Grey’s Anatomy thing or if this actually happens in hospitals, but in Grey’s

。

Esi: The doctors was, when they were training the trainee doctors, they were saying, “Don’t use, , ambiguous language. Say it.

Michelle (she/her): Yes

Esi: Sh- not she’s passed away, sorry, she’s died.

Michelle (she/her): She’s died, yes.

Esi: there’s

Michelle (she/her): Yeah, and that’s what it’s… Yeah.

Esi: been said.

Michelle (she/her): Exactly. And I think that, yeah, that does happen. , a- and I think that that is, that is the way we need to approach it. , And yes, I mean, like, so my Mum died just over a year ago. , And I’ve had, , a couple of weeks of feeling a bit rocky, and I said to my wife, “How are you feeling about it?

, How do you feel about, Mum dying?” ‘Cause it was, she was your mother-in-law. And she went, “Eh, it was a year ago. I’ve, I’ve moved on.” And that’s okay. That’s her brain. That’s how it works. She was upset at the time. It’s done. , So there are different, uh, ways of grieving, but also our brains work very differently.

, But [00:59:00] yes, finish, , taking things literally, if we’re doing that, we really have to be very clear about what we’re saying.

Esi: Yeah.

Michelle (she/her): with religion, again, that can also be a bit confusing. That doesn’t, I’m not trying to be disrespectful to religions at all, but sometimes it isn’t clear.

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): , So again, just making sure that we are giving, , the, the correct information in a way that people actually understand, and checking back with them, “What do, what do you think I mean by that?”

Esi: And it doesn’t take away from, , the rituals and the, the tradition

Michelle (she/her): not at all.

Esi: if it’s a religious, , tradition. It’s just also, making sure that person understands as well. So again, in the workplace, I always say, it would be impossible to remove metaphors and idioms from one’s language because they’re so ingrained. But it’s

Michelle (she/her): they are. Yes

Esi: , Reiterating what we actually mean. So I have an autistic friend who I always tell the story in training sessions with his permission, ,

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: I said to [01:00:00] him once… He called me when I had just been thinking about what we were gonna do, and so I said, “Oh, your ears must have been burning.”

He said, “No, they’re not. They’re fine.” and I said, “Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry, Alex.”

Michelle (she/her): Because yes, it’s, yeah

Esi: a few weeks later, and I was like, “You know what? You are a great reminder of how many idioms I actually use in my language.” And it’s not about removing them. It’s about saying, “This is what I

Michelle (she/her): Yep. Yes. Yeah, ’cause it is actually, neurotypical language is very confusing. , There’s so much that is

If you don’t know, there’s absolutely like, yeah, like just say what you mean, like, honestly. But another, another bit to this, I think, is quite important that we don’t discount people going to see a dead body.

Esi: Yeah. Okay

Michelle (she/her): and that’s partly why I think it’s really important that we bring death back into the community is that this is a natural part of the life cycle. It’s gonna happen, but we… It’s okay for children [01:01:00] or people with learning diff- difficulties and disabilities to see the person who’s died. It makes it very clear that’s what’s happened.

They’re not gonna come back to life. , And yeah, just understanding it’s okay. You can hold their hand. You can give them a kiss goodbye. You can, tell them about your day. Like, that’s, that’s okay. It doesn’t, it, it… I think we need to move away from the scary and just this is, this is it. Daddy has died. We need to go and, and say goodbye. That’s okay. , And your undertaker can, can help with that. But also you, if someone’s died at home and it’s not suspicious, , then you can gather friends and family around. You can wash and bathe them, dress them in the clothes that you want.

Just take a moment. Yeah

Esi: I do love how you say if it’s not suspicious. So if you haven’t buried

a family member under the patio

Michelle (she/her): Please don’t do that, no. ,

But you can, you can, if you own a house, you own the property, you can bury somebody in the back [01:02:00] garden

As long as it doesn’t affect the waterline,

Esi: I see.

Michelle (she/her): it in the deeds

Esi: Mm-hmm.

Michelle (she/her): person that buys the house needs to understand that there is a, a body there.

So yes,

Esi: Very interesting.

Michelle (she/her): yes, yes, uh, in

Esi: okay. That, uh, sorry, that was a joke. And is interesting to know, but yes, , if, if, yeah, under

Michelle (she/her): I just,

Esi: circumstances

Michelle (she/her): yeah, like if it’s sudden and unexpected, , and or there’s been an accident or whatever, absolutely call everybody that you need to. If it’s an expected death, take a beat. You don’t, it’s okay. But yeah, it, it’s just yeah.

Esi: So, , we have been talking … I mean, this is such an interesting subject. Thank you so much

Michelle (she/her): You’re welcome

Esi: educating me in this subject, , as well as our listeners.

 A lot of our listeners work in the, , equality, diversity, and inclusion space, , and the learning development space as well. So, so how … And I know how

So it’s a rhetorical question that I also want you [01:03:00] to answer.

Michelle (she/her): It’s not rhetorical,

Esi: how is this relevant to our audience, and what, , what advice would you give to our audience?

Michelle (she/her): So it’s really important, , that you are able to support your workforce, , and yourselves because, it’s gonna happen at some point. But that you understand what’s– someone’s likely to be going through and how to support when they come back to work. One of the things that was lovely when I was off is I suddenly got a bunch of flowers from work, which I didn’t know was gonna happen.

That was– That really was very touching. , So, little things like that. Checking in on them, but not pressuring them. Making sure they understand about bereavement leave. Make sure you’ve got a good policy in place around that. , and if you’re not gonna be paying your staff when they’re off, well, that’s not okay really.

When I was a coroner’s officer, I remember, , someone coming to see me, and her workplace gave her no time off whatsoever paid, which was just appalling. , So please, support your, your staff, uh, mentally, uh, as well as, physically and practically. [01:04:00] Give them– pay them. , But also to think about your clients.

So, , one of the things that’s really frustrating when you’re ringing round, , telling people that your person has died is having to repeat the bloody story over and over again. , And especially if you’ve been put through– if you’re ringing one company, but you’re put through to a couple of different departments, and then having to repeat the story over again.

, Make sure you have clear procedures around that so that you understand what your client is going through, that they might, might cry. They might not fu-fully understand what’s going on. They might be confused. They might just, give up because they’ve had enough. , So think about how you can make that journey easier for the client.

, That,, very important. , So yeah, have, have some good policies and procedures in place and, , talk to somebody who understands what’s, what’s gonna happen. They can guide you.

Esi: I think that’s really good advice. and, and from what you were saying earlier as well about if you’re a manager supporting your employee through that process, I think there’s, was a lot [01:05:00] of synergies there kind of how we talk about support that people need in the workplace as well. , So it’s all about, it’s compassion, empathy, listening, not making assumptions. , But also looking for, , when you as a manager need it as well. And

Michelle (she/her): Because it’s,

Esi: sorry

Michelle (she/her): Well, no, I’m just gonna say it’s difficult. It’s not easy, especially ’cause, , your employees are gonna disclose things to you, and they’re gonna need support, and that you in turn w- may need support. So, do you have private medical care in place where you can refer someone to employee support programs, counseling, et cetera?

, That’s, that’s part of looking after your employees. If you look after your employees, , then they’re gonna look after you. , You have to, to really

Esi: invest

and I,

Michelle (she/her): Mm-hmm

Esi: know, I think the people, the listeners, do, want to be inclusive because they know it’s a moral that we should all be doing. But I know that some of our listeners also work in workplaces where executive teams need a bit more, , of understanding [01:06:00] around this. So I mean, there is a business case to doing this right as well for the bottom line. There’s a business case for, for getting it right for our employees, but also getting it right for our clients as well.

Because clients talk to their friends who are your clients as well.

I was just gonna say I love this idea of say it once. I mean, we talk about it a lot in kind of setting up profiles for theatre. so I can call The National, for example, and say, “I’m Esi Hardy,” and they know what my access requirements are so that when I book tickets, I don’t have to say, “I’m in a wheelchair, and I need an accessible loo and all.” They say, “Oh, yes, Esi, we’ve got it all for you, and here’s Robbie.” , And it would be great if you could do that in this process as well, that say it once you set

Michelle (she/her): I just, I, I just had a, yeah, an image. Sorry, yes.

Esi: I know, but

Michelle (she/her): and that

Esi: continue with the image. That’s great.

Michelle (she/her): Robbie on a platter. I don’t, I don’t know. Yeah. Uh,

Esi: And the next episode[01:07:00]

Michelle (she/her): Even the Tell It Once service, uh, actually wasn’t great. My wife is laughing in the background because it was pretty awful. Like, all it does is tell them. You still have to speak to them, so it doesn’t, it doesn’t actually take away anything, and we still had lots of complications. I think it was earlier this year, I had a letter, , from the council or something saying that we owed money.

Uh, this is, over 12 months since Mum had died, and I’m like, “Why are you … W- this has all been sorted. I know it’s been sorted. Like, why is this coming back?” So, , make sure again that you’re, , that you’re not contacting people that, you shouldn’t be. A- another example, a friend of mine was at, , their, uh, family member’s funeral, , and the hospital, uh, rang to find out why, , the person hadn’t appeared, uh, for their appointment on the morning of the funeral.

There are certain things that, if you’ve been told, [01:08:00] make sure that you have

done the paperwork and pressed the buttons on the computer so that y- you’re not disturbing people at a totally inappropriate time, , and asking for, this person who has died to appear or to sign paperwork or, whatever

you really need to be very, , very hot on making sure that everything is tied up properly because i- especially, if someone’s died and it’s expected, it’s emotional. Yes, there’s all of that, but if someone’s had a very sudden loss, , or their loved one has been murdered or, died in a horrific accident, it’s so much worse.

And to have to ring and speak to someone and repeat the information over and over again is, oh, God, it- it’s cruel. , And I think that’s what I’d like to see from companies, is to make sure that they’re, , that the people on the other end of the phone are understanding. Just do their job properly because it’s the last thing we want.

Esi: Yeah, absolutely, yes. so we’re nearly at [01:09:00] the end of our episode. I’ve started asking my guests this question. ,

Michelle (she/her): Yeah

Esi: so if you were looking at yourself when you started your career, , I mean career as in kind of business career, work career, but also, I mean career in terms of, , after kind of leaving education onwards, so learning about yourself. would you say to yourself that you wish you knew then?

Michelle (she/her): , I mean, I started about when I was 13 as a Saturday girl, uh, in the veterinary, in local veterinary surgery, and then left school at 16 to, to go and do veteranas- veterinary nursing full-time. But I think I ha- would have had no idea that my life would turn out the way that it has. –

I think what I’d probably say to myself is just to go with the flow and to enjoy all of the differences, the different careers that, and jobs that I’ve had that have enabled me to, find this particular [01:10:00] path. , Yeah, and to just take every opportunity and do as much as, as I can. But that it’s, it, my path is not gonna be straightforward, , and that, that’s okay.

, To, not to beat myself up o- over the fact that my life does, does not look like what I thought it would look like when I was, a, a young person.

Esi: I think that it might sound simple when we get older, but I think it’s so real even when you are kind of, , in your 30s, 40s, and 50s.

Don’t give yourself such a hard time. , I think we forget that. We give that advice to others, but we don’t give it to ourselves. Be a friend to yourself, I think is a really good message.

Michelle (she/her): Absolutely. And it’s never too late to start over.

Esi: हम्म

Michelle (she/her): you, you can, y- you can start over at any age, and that is, it’s fine. Uh, actually, you have more experience than you think you do.

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): and if you’re late diagnosed, , neurodivergent like I am, [01:11:00] that, yeah, you can just forgive yourself for not knowing any different.

And yeah, it’s grieving that old life and the things that could have been, but at the same time, uh, I just have so much more experience in other things that now I’ve come across a completely unusual profession that I’m, that I’m in, which is great, so.

Esi: Brilliant. Thank you. , I ask people if they have any influences that they want to share. So that could be people, books, music, anything really

Michelle (she/her): Yeah, I’m very eclectic, so I collect… Like, I have lots of different in- interests in lots of different things, and yeah.

,

Esi: Do you have a favorite?

Michelle (she/her): yeah

Esi: a go-to?

Michelle (she/her): , Music-wise, I love Pink.

Esi: Okay, cool

Michelle (she/her): I do, yeah. , And I love her attitude about, about life and, , her body shape and everything else, which is not this typical, you

Esi: Yeah

Michelle (she/her): pretty kind of, , slim, uh, she’s so physical and energetic and gymnastic and just, [01:12:00] yeah, I just think she’s great. , Yeah.

Esi: Cool. where can people find out more about you?

Michelle (she/her): So my website is Black Cats and Unicorns. , So that’s all kind of one, blackcatsandunicorns.co.uk. , The idea for that came from, , we have a, a black cat now. We had two. , But Albus loves to snuggle up with his, uh, little unicorn. , And I just had this image of, , kind of love and death, life and death, this balance.

, And, , yeah, so that’s where, that’s where that came from.

Esi: Perfect.

Michelle (she/her): can also find me on Instagram at Black Cats and Unicorns again. , And I also have, I’ve, , been doing some training with, uh, the Coffin Club. , So I’m now gonna be having the Leeds Coffin Club, where I do, I do a, a regular drop-in at Flamingo’s Café, , once a month.

, So you can find me there. , I am on LinkedIn, but I’m not there very often. I, I, I, yeah, I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with social media, so, , Instagram probably more than anything or, , you can contact me [01:13:00] on the website. , There’s also should be an image with my, uh, WhatsApp QR code, so you can contact me there if you want to.

Esi: Excellent. Thank you very much. Can you just tell us, have you got two minutes to tell us a bit more about the Coffee Club?

Michelle (she/her): Yeah, so Coffin Club started in Australia. , And it was, uh, quite an incredible project really, but basically people gathered, , to build coffins, to get in coffins, to decorate them, to learn about, , all sorts of things to do with, with dying and funerals. , And Coffin Club, uh, over here, , initially run by the two Kates down in, , Hastings area, I think.

, And yeah, they kind of rolled out… People can do their training and then it gets rolled out wherever you are locally. , So the idea is that, uh, we’ll have maybe a short course, , where we’ll cover some basics around how being able to talk about, death, what are our fears around it, how- the language that you use, , talking about the different types of funerals that you can have.

, [01:14:00] Visiting an undertaker, going to physically see some coffins, maybe get inside one, just to, take the, the fear and things away from it. Know that you can decorate your own coffin, , shrouds, what all these different things are. , There’s a new form of cremation, water cremation, which is, , now legal in Scotland over here.

, Waiting for it to be rolled out in the rest of the UK. , Thinking about if you want to do it all yourself so you don’t have to involve an undertaker, what that would entail. , Yeah, so lots of, lots of things like that. So it’s less of a grief group and more of an educational, , yeah.

Esi: Sounds really interesting. I don’t live in Leeds, but if I did, I would definitely come along.

Michelle, thank you so much. I found this episode really, interesting. I’ve learnt a lot. , So yeah, thank you so much for generously donating your time and, and, , educating all of us.

And also I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. , You’ve been great to talk to. So yeah, thank you so much for [01:15:00] joining. ,

Michelle (she/her): Thank you, Esi. I’ve really enjoyed it too. Yes.

Esi: And thank you everybody for tuning in and listening. If you have… a little call to action for you. If you know of anyone who you think would be a good guest, if yourself would like to be a guest, , or if you have any topics you’re like, “I wish Esi would talk about that,” , in the realm of inclusion, it doesn’t have to be disability equality, it could be any equality, get in touch. , Click on the link to go to the Celebrating Disability website and send us an email. I’d love to hear. , But until next time, Bye everyone. Thank you. Bye.

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